Does anyone have stock A429 flow numbers anywhere? This is the first stock off of a crate motor set I have ever flowed. They were less than impressive to say the least. I can certainly I see why, and it will be easy to improve much on them.
0.05- 45/ 43 ----- 0.05- 29/ 36
0.1- 74/ 76 ----- 0.1- 65/ 65
0.2- 128/ 134 ----- 0.2- 134/ 132
0.3- 183/ 196 ----- 0.3- 176/ 181
0.4- 237/ 260 ----- 0.4- 202/ 215
0.5- 269/ 302 ----- 0.5- 214/ 240
0.6- 287/ 320 ----- 0.6- 220/ 259
0.7- 288/ 327 ----- 0.7- 221/ 267
0.8- 290/ 332 ----- 0.8- 221/ 269
Bret,
We just finished a set of A429 heads and here are the numbers we got for the stock flows and what we finished up with. These were the early heads with 2.25 intakes and 1.76 exhaust valves. Hope this helps.
John
Yeah, now those pretty much look on par with the flow of the intakes on these I have. Your intakes start out a bit better but mine showed a bit higher finish from .600 lift on. Now on the exhausts these never broke 200.
Yeah, now those pretty much look on par with the flow of the intakes on these I have. Your intakes start out a bit better but mine showed a bit higher finish from .600 lift on. Now on the exhausts these never broke 200.
Bret,
This is exactly why we see a SCJ do so much better than the as cast A-429. Plug in the DOOE-R intake port CSA's and throat, then you will have a 400 CFM A-429. From what we have seen in our neck of the woods a DOOE-R or A-429 will out run an SCJ period and run dead even with a P-51.
On a stock set of those that I tested I believe that the exhaust flow never bested 185cfm and the intakes were in the 330cfm range.
Gosh Gary it sounds to me like maybe you need to reevaluate you camshaft selection. It seems from what folks have been posting that the newer heads like a camshaft that's quite different.
Okay, here's an average of the flow numbers on one of the set I have. Once again these are as came off a stock Ford Racing 514 and are still in very good condition as far as valves, seats and guides go. 4.5 Slider plate on my SF-600(FlowCom equiped).
To say the least I was less than impressed. The guy showed me a dyno sheet from this motor that broke 600 horse too.??? I can say that looking at these...I believe they have a ton of potential.
On a stock set of those that I tested I believe that the exhaust flow never bested 185cfm and the intakes were in the 330cfm range.
Gosh Gary it sounds to me like maybe you need to reevaluate you camshaft selection. It seems from what folks have been posting that the newer heads like a camshaft that's quite different.
Dave,
I haven't seen Jon Kaase recommend any different camshaft in his testing.
There is no magic Bullet camshaft that will give you 75 Hp and run .3 quicker. If a certain cam, convertor, carb, or intake will allow a P-51 to run a certain ET, they will run just as well in an A-429. The only magic Bullet I know of is an A-460 head.
How much faster do you think a P-51 should run than an A-429?
Were the intake valves backcut on those A-429 heads? I am assuming they are not. The first thing I'd like to see you do, is put a 30* backcut on the intake valves, about .075"-.080" wide, and then flow test the intakes again. I suspect you'll be a lot happier in regards to the intake flow.
I'd say you need to read up on the testing that some folks have done where they recommend using a different camshaft than what was used in the older heads with poorer mid lift flow numbers. It seems to me that they were taking out 10 degrees at .050 of duration on both lobes to keep the power band, rpm and shift points similar.
It seems that the general consensus is that the new heads tend to make the engine somewhat over cammed for a given chassis combination that's fairly optimal with the old cylinder head.
Seems to me that if the Kaase style heads pick you up 100 horsepower that you should pick up a half second pretty easily as long as everything else is optimized, why not?
I looked at my notes and my figures were very similar to yours Bret. With some work on the bowl and a back cut my intakes went 340cfm.
The backcut on the intake will do wonders if they aren't yet. Probably good for some 20 or so cfm at .300. From the numbers I would guess they are not backcut as my doves will go 220 to 225 @.300. Is there a machined ridge in there where the valve job meets the bowl?
If they are they are pretty close to what my A-429 Heads flowed out of the box 320.7 and 191.9.Those were on my friends home built flow bench and have the 2.20 and 1.76 valves.
I'd say you need to read up on the testing that some folks have done where they recommend using a different camshaft than what was used in the older heads with poorer mid lift flow numbers. It seems to me that they were taking out 10 degrees at .050 of duration on both lobes to keep the power band, rpm and shift points similar.
It seems that the general consensus is that the new heads tend to make the engine somewhat over cammed for a given chassis combination that's fairly optimal with the old cylinder head.
Seems to me that if the Kaase style heads pick you up 100 horsepower that you should pick up a half second pretty easily as long as everything else is optimized, why not?
I looked at my notes and my figures were very similar to yours Bret. With some work on the bowl and a back cut my intakes went 340cfm.
Really, not according to Jon Kaase's earlier post are we not to believe his test results?
Here's a quote from that post:
JDM, the heads we have been running as prototypes flow about 420 and 295 CFM. But here's the problem with air flow numbers and computer programs that use them. We can port a set of old A-429 CJ heads to flow 420 CFM. Then port a set of P-51's to flow 420. Finally, the new hemi's flow 420. The exhausts are not that much different in flow, although the hemi has a .140" larger ex. valve and a .050" larger intake valve.
With everything else being the same, same 521" short block, same 273* roller cam, same intake and carb, the CJ would make 700-720 HP, the P-51 would make 800-810, and the hemi would make 900-910. All with the dry air flow. There is almost 200 HP difference between the CJ and hemi, with the intake air flow being the same. The middle lift air flow numbers on the hemi would be way better, along with bore shrouding, etc. As you can probably tell, I'm not big fan of the flow bench and use it very little. ... Kaase
I had a set done back in 2000 by IDT and had there stage 2 port work done.
int exh
.1 67 56
.2 132 110
.3 198 146
.4 257 170
.5 307 189
.6 333 202
.65 341 207
Really, not according to Jon Kaase's earlier post are we not to believe his test results?
Here's a quote from that post:
JDM, the heads we have been running as prototypes flow about 420 and 295 CFM. But here's the problem with air flow numbers and computer programs that use them. We can port a set of old A-429 CJ heads to flow 420 CFM. Then port a set of P-51's to flow 420. Finally, the new hemi's flow 420. The exhausts are not that much different in flow, although the hemi has a .140" larger ex. valve and a .050" larger intake valve.
With everything else being the same, same 521" short block, same 273* roller cam, same intake and carb, the CJ would make 700-720 HP, the P-51 would make 800-810, and the hemi would make 900-910. All with the dry air flow. There is almost 200 HP difference between the CJ and hemi, with the intake air flow being the same. The middle lift air flow numbers on the hemi would be way better, along with bore shrouding, etc. As you can probably tell, I'm not big fan of the flow bench and use it very little. ... Kaase
I don't know but was this a set of Jon's Engine Master style 51 results, and if so do you really think that the A429s were rubbed on or as much effort was put into them as were the 51s? Was the A429 setup as tuned for horsepower results as the 51s? I guess I'd have to see the heads and the dyno specifics before I believe it was a fair 100 horse.
Head for head comparison, I'd say going from the stock A429s(as bad as they are) to the stock P51s(which is really a cast as ported and then they are bowl cleaned at Kaase's) may net you over 50 maybe close to a hundred. If that were the comparison I may go along with it. But not both being fully ported. Like I said I may just not be smart enough to figure it out.
Well no matter what numbers you choose to believe the A429's are not really bad heads overall. The ones I've messed with have been rather crudely machined and a little bit of work can make them a ton better. The bowls were awful in the ones I've had through here, just rough yet easy to improve I'm not quite sure why they are like that are they all that way? Was the tooling getting worn out?
I bet you can pick up 10% with some very simple preparation.
This thread kinda reminds me of the artical in last months Hot Rod, With the BBC heads. It was kind of Ironic that a set of Peanut port Factory Truck heads in their simulation where only about 3-4 tenths slower than a set of aftermarket aluminum heads (4 sets tested).
Even the flow bench numbers from the aftermarket heads where quite varied, only simulated to within a 10th in the 1/4......
Makes one wonder....
Guess the lesson is More Flow doesnt always mean faster?
Well no matter what numbers you choose to believe the A429's are not really bad heads overall. The ones I've messed with have been rather crudely machined and a little bit of work can make them a ton better. The bowls were awful in the ones I've had through here, just rough yet easy to improve I'm not quite sure why they are like that are they all that way? Was the tooling getting worn out?
I bet you can pick up 10% with some very simple preparation.
That is exactly the deal on these. I'm not sure I have ever looked at any heads that had as bad a transition in the bowl as these have. I spent just a few minutes on a couple ports and have picked up as much as 20% at some lifts. 8)
I'd kind of like to have a set of these for a personal project.
First off I do not buy for one minute that you're not too smart. :!: :!: :!:
Secondly I tend to agree that while the scj style heads make better power for a given cfm flow rate because of a more efficient valve layout and dual quench, I do not believe them to be a full 100 hp better. I would buy 35 to mabey 50.
I have seen similar examples of builds on here (similar cam specs) that are near or exceed 800 HP with fully worked iron cj's and the fully worked A-429's were about 20 hp better when compared. I assume because of the less turbulent exhaust port???
Heck fully worked D0VEs are making over 700 hp at this level. I tend to think that the differences are closer than most believe.
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