Hat injection versus dual terminators for injected alcohol?? - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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Hat injection versus dual terminators for injected alcohol??

I have a buddy who is considering switching to alcohol and he was curious which system would work best. This would be on a 526 CI aluminum FE engine in a 2100# tube chassis car with a Lenco that runs in the high 8's.

He has a sheetmetal tunnel ram with dual dominators on gas currently. He fights overheating problems and ET consistancy (bracket racing) for changing weather conditions at a high altitude track. Alcohol injection should help with both of these conditions correct? Also do you think he will gain HP or lose some???

I hear a lot about Ron's injection and how consistant it is, what about the hat injector.... how do these compare as far as consistancy and ease of tuning? On a tunnelram it would seem a easy conversion to a hat injector like a bird catcher with an adapter plate. Running two toilets or terminators would also work but be more expensive than a hat system it appears.

He knows about changing the fuel system and front mount cell etc.

Any real world comparisons or advice from those running alcohol. Pro's and cons, and/or recomedations, of each system etc. If anyone wants to talk him out of this, now is the time so pipe up please....

Thanks!

68 Cougar XR7 GT 428 4-speed, street legal, new best 10.43@131.2
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 07:22 PM
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XR7 - We run an Alcohol Enderle Bird injection/ TFS tunnel ram on a 514ci A-460 headed motor in a "mud racer"

Some of the issues you have already seem to have some understanding. As far as cost involved I think the dual terminators would def be the more expensive route to go. I dont think the mounting would be any more difficult. Ronís has a great customer service dept and everyone I know that runs one has had good things to say.

As far as Enderle Hat I personally prefer the hat and would rather mess with one injector/ linkage for simplicity. Most that have had both claim the Hat to have a slight edge on performance. The down side is Enderle has a "terrible" customer service dept. But knowledge between racers with Enderle in incredable and helpful also. Either unit is a learning curve regardless of which one you go with.

Gas vs Alcohol is really opinionated :P Personally I think the greatest noticeable deference between carburetion and injection is the "throttle response" I really donít find that there is a huge deff in horsepower with Alcohol vs Gasoline if there is it isn't the giant percentage that some like to claim. I think the most thing that you will notice is that Alcohol carries a flatter curve with better torq than gas. Some tuners claim that Gas will produce better "peak" horsepower than alcohol.

If heat is a problem now, it won't be on alcohol and you may even fight the problem the other way by keeping oil heaters or blanket heater on your system. You can set barrel valves to cool and not efect performance with some tuning knowledge. Some tuners say that it is better to have "wet heads" and a dry block to stabilize head/chamber temperatures. Personally as mud racers were only on for 2-3 seconds and we don't find that to be an issue. We run extremely low barrel valve percentages and smaller nozzles that the drag racers could never survive at.

As far as fuel cell mounting the preferred/suggested method is to mount your fuel cell above the pump and to limit line filters that are restrictive.

Tuning - It is way more consistant than gasoline, it carries more oxy so it is effected less than gas to temperature/weather changes. The most you will change in your area is a couple pill size from weather changes between the seasons.

Pro's
Alcohol is generally less expensive to buy and even with alcohol usage being more than gasoline it still comes out cheaper to use than the "Myth" that alcohol burns twice than gas so there is no savings. Just not true. I already mentioned that it runs cooler and there is increased throttle response and delivers more torq. It can be a weight saving minus the use of cooling systems. And ore consistant and easyer to tune.

Con's - Alcohol requires a lot of fuel system maintenance, keeping the system clean because generally the filters are less restrictive and Alcohol is very corrosive and needs to be flushed after every day/night of racing. Never let the fuel system set wet with alcohol. Nozzles, jets and line should be cleaned and inspected to insure they are not plugged every race weekend.

The alcohol drys the ceramic seals in the pump so you need to "wet" the pump and system and never turn the pump dry you also need to run a "top lube" in the alcohol if it isn't already added in it when you purchase it.

Oil changes need to be done every race weekend the dilution and contamination is a factor. I don't know that alcohol requires more bearing maintenance but I know in our application it has made us check bearing more consistently then we normally would with gas.

Alcohol isn't the fuel for lazy racers if you want to come home and leave the car in the trailer until next race stay with gasoline it is safer

good luck
Jeff

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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 07:55 PM
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Blastertech why are you having oil dilution problems ?
I didn't state I had any oil dilution problems, some applications do. We simply don't have the idle time drag racers do. Some drag racers run high barrell valve percentages for cooling.

Alcohol in injected motors are under 100-150 psi and twice the ammount of alcohol is passeng than a normal gas motor. Pretty typical on an injected alcohol motor to change oil every weekend. The other factor is alcohol asorbs water, draing oil insures that it isnt contaminated with moisture.

Most of injected alcohol guys will run a parafin based oil to help with these conditions Brad Penn is reproducing the old Kendal Green and that is a real popular oil for injected applications

Most big injected blower motors will drop every 4 runs and the Nitro injected drop every pass.

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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 09:49 PM
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So are you saying those that do have dilutions problems are tuned to run cool and not fast :lol: .
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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 10:33 PM
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So are you saying those that do have dilutions problems are tuned to run cool and not fast
Good Question :

Yes and no, The injector system works on a barrell valve and a percentage of the barrel valve feeds the idle cir. While you are at idle you can control the ammount of fuel by the by a percentage of the barrell valve. The higher the percentage the more fuel to cool the motor.

At a idle if you want to get heat in the motor you crack the fuel shut-off to lean the system and the idle will increase and the motor temp will rise. If your on the return road and want to coll the motor you idle slowly and the motor will decrease in temp.

Once the hat ( butterflies) are open apox 30 percent the barrell valve is wide open and is and the fuel is regulated by the main by-pass with a "pill" the bigger the pill the more returns to the cell and the system becomes leaner. With a smaller the pill less fuel is returned and the system becomes phatter.

During the run or the topend a "hy-speed" by-pass poppet ( spring loaded) can be installed for additional pill to lean the fuel curve further if needed. the spring is set to a certain system pressure and it opens to return fuel.

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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 10:43 PM
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XR7 sorry to change subject (sort of), but I'd love to see pics of this moster FE powered ride. I'm an old FE fan.

.

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www.BIGBLOCKFOX.com
'69 Mach1 390 4-spd, '64 Falcon Futura
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 11:37 PM
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I run an alky carb and I cool mine with a fan , water pump , and radiator :lol: I am changing oil on about 110 passes.

One thing I have noticed since switching to the tfs street heads is they build a little more water temp than the doves and my oil is diluted less.

Now the big question is it because the better combustion chambers are burning more of the alky and its not getting in the oil pan . That makes me wonder if it would in fact run better on race fuel.

A buddy of mine tunes 2 different cars , one with a hat and one with a terminator. They are using an electronic hsb. I think thats kinda neet because they can vary the rpm of when it kicks in. I think it was worth 50 hp on the dyno / vs not using it and tuning alone.

You mentioned better throttle responce being better. A problem they got into was when running a slower car theirs would load up when on the 2 step.
He ended up using two 2 steps and turning them on at different amounts of time with one of the high end delay boxes. It "stutters" on one 2 step at a lower rpm for preset .xxx amount of time and then instantly switches to the launch rpm just before the transbrake releases.
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-18-2008, 12:16 AM
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One thing I have noticed since switching to the tfs street heads is they build a little more water temp than the doves and my oil is diluted less.
The chamber temps could be one account, and the other being you have more water temp could be that the oil temp is higher also. A lot of injected alcohol guys use an oil temp gauge in there pan to help tune specialy when they have a filled block. Keeping the oil temp up will help with the dilution also.

I ran an Alcohol carb on all my drag cars,I really can't remember if I picked up when switching to alcohol, been to long ago. :? I just don't remember beening noticably faster on alcohol.

What kind of intake duration are you using. Sometimes an alcohol motor will like a little more for increased cylinder temps. These may be why your thinking gas would work better..if true a good observation by you. Mr. Johansen ( Herbert cams) built our alcohol injected cam and was one of the thing he explained when I questioned it.

Yea there is some different monitoring devices out there for Hy-speeds by-passes. I have a manual adjustable hy-speed from a spint car plumbed in but really haven't used it. Don't know if I will need to on 160' track

Yea.. converter bog is sometimes a problem and there are several methods to trim the fuel, I have never had to deal with them problems. We flash the converter rather than using a brake because we run single lane times at most events and reaction time isn't in the equasion.

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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-18-2008, 12:42 AM
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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-18-2008, 12:57 AM
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were at 290 on our injected alcohol, Just for curiosity you might call aroud and see what kind of opinions you get. Was you cam originally built as a gas cam ??

" A - Head Groupie"
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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-18-2008, 04:16 AM
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I don't remember if gas was specified or not. I am not going to change cams though its a bracket racer and its consisent enough to suit me.

Do you think a carb on alky will stay in tune better than injection through out different good air bad air days. My buddie is always changing pills ,etc every time we go. I never touched my carb all year after I got it set and ran just as consisent as he did.
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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-18-2008, 06:25 AM
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Do you think a carb on alky will stay in tune better than injection through out different good air bad air days.
I haven't any facts to back that up but the AFR are both the same using alcohol I don't know that the difference in delivery would effect the tune.

alcohol AFR is 6 to 1 and gasoline is somwhere around twice that ratio thats the reason that temp/weather effect alcohol less. t takes a considerable weather change to effect alcohol

I just pushed some numbers in my "tune -up spread sheet"

75 degrees 45 hum = 111 pill and 2.804 gpm (alcohol)

85 degrees 60 hum = 113 pll and 2.738 gpm (alcohol)

A enderle style pill is incremented in .001 so with a ten degree weather change and 15 % Realitive humidity change the fuel consumption changed .066 gpm and the pill changed .002

Keep in mind that most tuners just carry pill changes in increments of five rather than every pill change to the thousanths. Most say that they don't see a defference. Most will go for a degree of timing rather than to lean a pill .003

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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-18-2008, 06:16 PM
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The difference I see is the injection does what you "tell it to" and the carb does what is "asked" of it.
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-18-2008, 07:14 PM
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Exactly, Thats a good way to look at it. With mechanical fuel injection you literally " Build" your own fuel curve to meet your requirements. It takes a bit of hard learning, I consider myself to be an intermediate tuner. There is a lot of I havenít had the opportunity to be learned on yet.

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