Upgrade from Carb to fuel injection ? - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Upgrade from Carb to fuel injection ?

Is upgrading from carb to fuel injection worth it for a daily driver?

What are the benefits ?
Right now im looking at two differnt systems. The EzJection throttle body injection and the massflo systems multipoint injection.
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 08:31 PM
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IF the tune is good you might see better idle,faster warm up,better throttle response, better mpg, and more power. this increase can be even more depending on how off the carbs tune was. i am going to EFI using a megasquirt ecu just so i dont have to run a maf or spend $3000+ but i have to build it AND TUNE IT not that big of a deal if your into that kinda stuff. but if your time is worth a lot then the massflo will work fine and you can always tune it yourself if you want to. O and you don't have to worry about going to big with the intake or throttle body like you would with a carb set up because the fuel wont fall out of the air stream as much.
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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megasquirt

Interested in how much mpg increase, dont mind building my own setup megasquirt does have premade boxes for 400$, What would be a list of compnents and cost for a mega squirt gm throttlebody setup ?
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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 09:35 PM
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MPG increase will depend on the tune and how bad your old tune was. if your not looking for power then you could get a newer 460 (cant remember the year) intake and heads thats already efi and just control that with the megasquirt or you could buy the efi victor intake from mass flo and find everthing else on your on. theres so many ways to go about it, what are you plans for the motor, whats it goin in, any hp goals, can you weld alluminum,do you know enough to tune the megasquirt?

is there a reason why you want to use a gm throttle body?
i think i will be able to swap mine for under $1000 but that with me building everthing that i can.
i dont want to make it sound like its harder then it is but the megasquirt is not for the faint of heart.
also keep in mind you can control just the fuel with the MS and leave the timing alone if you wanted to.
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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my combo

Im running a stock head cam and intake 1970 429 thunderjet with headers a holley 750 carb and an accel ready to run distributer.

I want the vehicle setup to be a good running daily driver... not that its going to be but the motor is in an 89 mustang, more then enough power for that little car, already it feels like a rocket. So I want it to be just as smooth as possible. My goals= Easy starting and good mileage for a 385 series. So whats the best way to accomplish this ?
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbfhnj View Post
IF the tune is good you might see better idle,faster warm up,better throttle response, better mpg, and more power. this increase can be even more depending on how off the carbs tune was. i am going to EFI using a megasquirt ecu just so i dont have to run a maf or spend $3000+ but i have to build it AND TUNE IT not that big of a deal if your into that kinda stuff. but if your time is worth a lot then the massflo will work fine and you can always tune it yourself if you want to. O and you don't have to worry about going to big with the intake or throttle body like you would with a carb set up because the fuel wont fall out of the air stream as much.
I'll agree with all of this EXCEPT the statement of "more power". It simply isn't so ... the same - maybe.

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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 12:46 AM
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Massflo hands down. No tuning necessary they send it with basic tune and it will learn your combo for itself and you can upgrade cam heads etc. and not send computer to be retuned. Unless you like tuning it yourself then go with stock efi and megasquirt and retune everytime you change things.

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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 04:26 AM
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"I'll agree with all of this EXCEPT the statement of "more power". It simply isn't so ... the same - maybe."

you are right,most of the time people lose topend power when goin efi, i should have said you will only make more power if your old tune was not optimum, but really how often is that the case?
the fact is your carb is optimum the day you tune it then it just goes down hill from there.

also EFI lets you run closer to the safety limit of your tune, so more power and still having a safety net if something happens.
o and about the mass flo tuning itself, im not sure what they do to make it do this but i would think under high rpm and load it would go into open loop mode and and not make changes anymore, thats why you have to tell them everything about your motor. but they can on get so close it can not be perfect.
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 08:33 AM
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My experience in using EFI has been rather limited. I've done several big block Mopar engines for one of my customers all of which use the Edelbrock Pro Flo setup. Last year's engine used the Pro Flo 2 hardware which was a lot more user adjustable and in this particular case it REQUIRED a lot more tuning.

The build was for his 1963 Dodge wagon that he was taking on the Hot Rod Power Tour and this particular engine was set up to run on 87 octane and get the best mileage possible on that fuel. I built the engine with low compression, Edelbrock heads and a cam that was 208 at .050 with a 112 lob separation. I loaded the program that's supposed to be a good baseline for a mild 440 and found that it was WAY off. The reason was that my engine was just too MILD!

I ended up starting from scratch on the programming and using my dyno to hold the engine at different rpm levels while working at various throttle openings/loadings all the way to WOT. This too a lot of time but in the end it idled smooth at 600rpm and made 400 horsepower. It never pinged EVER on the cheapest of gas and it got 18.5mpg. It starts and runs beautifully and it runs harder that you would expect when you get on the throttle.

Will it out run a good carburetor? At WOT probably not but I think it would get close. It probably does out perform a carburetor under most other conditions but it took a lot of work to get it to run like it does. EFI is VERY powerful and it allows you to do things that are impossible to do with a regular carburetor just be prepared to put in some serious effort to get it right.

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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 09:45 AM
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I am a proponent of EFI on street vehicles but, I am also a realist.
The fuel injection properties are well known however, F.I. proponents seem to always point to a POORLY tuned carburetor and then profess to tell everyone that the F.I. system NEEDS to be tuned correctly - we should compare "apples to apples".
ALSO, those same proponents seem to conveniently forget, (or they were ignorant of the facts), that there are numerous carburetors in the marketplace which change themselves to various conditions with internal altitude compensation and O2 feedback to constantly readjust the air fuel ratio to a constant ratio.

Although the "time" was short lived because of the oncoming popularity of EFI, there are MANY "production" quadrajet carburetors which do this, (along with lots and lots of 2 barrels and 1 barrels), and Holley DID sell high performance versions of those very carburetors; I personally have a 750 double pumper with those properties. They never had the chance to become popular BECAUSE of the oncoming of EFI however, they ARE out there.

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Last edited by rmcomprandy; 01-03-2010 at 09:47 AM.
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Carb vs EFI

Some more questions

How would a carb out perform efi at WOT ? Most would think that switching from carb to efi would provide performance inscreases however, a little off topic but back in the 80's the Honda CRX was the King of fuel misers. The Single Barrel Carb version had better fuel economy then the mpfi. Why this is I don't understand.

This spring befor I put the car back on the road it will have a wide band 02 sensor and a vacuum gauge. So my carb setup should be reasonably tuned. Right now If I keep my secondaries closed I can get 15-17mpg on the highway.
Im confident that I can get over 20 with some tweaks.

I do not have an Ignition box, I have the accel ready to run distributor. Would one make a noticeable difference ? which model would be good with this distributor ?
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 01:42 PM
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"how would a carb out perform efi at WOT?"

Im trying to figure that one out as well, maybe if the EFI was tuned by these guys lol j/k.

but really i like carbs i just think they belong on a trailer car and randy why would you go through the work to control a carb with a computer when you could go all the way and have control over timing and fuel with no limit and mpfi? i dont understand if your gonna go efi then do it right jmo. and there are plenty of race cars running EFI and if turbo is in the picture then EFI will always be on top IMO. (not to say theres not guys that make a blowthrough work)
i don't to argue with anyone about this because it comes down to what YOU like and what YOU are confident in tuning.

have a good day.
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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 02:02 PM
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I am only going to say that the word "upgrade" isn't really right for this situation. EFI is not necissarily better. A well tuned carb will do the job you are wanting with little frustration and a lot less Money! Call Dale Cubic (www.cfmperfcarbs.com) or James Patrick at Pro Systems, or Quickfuel and get something built for what you need! Will save you a lot of frustration!

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 02:49 PM
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Look at ALL the places where F.I. and carbs have gone "head to head" in WOT horsepower measurements NA when BOTH are tuned correctly.
The F.I. systems simply don't make any MORE horsepower. That is FACT no matter what the theory says is possible; everything else mentioned is however, a given.

I certainly agree with Cale. Depending upon the circumstances, going to F.I. may NOT be an upgrade.

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Last edited by rmcomprandy; 01-03-2010 at 03:02 PM.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 02:57 PM
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bbfhnj: "why would anyone use a carb"...?
The word "better" encompasses all facets of the situation and is merely subjective.
It's called money and the expense of what it will cost for all F.I. stuff vs. carburetion in the end. Especially with the cheap people out in the car world today when $100.00 is like a windfall ... apparently you are oblivious to those enthusiasts being in the majority.

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Last edited by rmcomprandy; 01-03-2010 at 03:05 PM.
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