Analyze my combo and dyno graph! - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Analyze my combo and dyno graph!

Hey guys. Long time member, rare poster. I'm the guy with the 460 Crown Vic. We got this dyno on Friday and I'd like opinions! I have a couple of questions, after the picture.

First, my combo:

1983 460 Short Block bored .40 over
1983 OE spec pistons & rods
1968 C8 Ford Heads, home ported as per Scott J.'s website
factory '68 valve train w/locking nuts
Custom cam per Scott's design - .492 Intake lift, .523 exhaust lift, 217.7 intake duration, 230.1 exhaust duration
Adjustable roller timing chain set to o*
Stock 83 Ford truck water pump
Stock 83 Ford truck (4x4) oil pan
Edelbrock Performer Aluminum Intake
Holley Street Avenger 770 w/ 72/72 jets
Dura Spark distributor w/Scott's advance curve 14* initial timing.
Mallory Hy-Fire VI-AL ignition box
Mid length tubular headers headers from Fordpowertrain.com (Shorty II's)
True dual exhaust with straight pipes, custom H. 2.5" Dynomax Super Turbo mufflers, to side exit exhaust.

Mallory 4110, 110 GPH electric fuel pump, dead headed and self regulating at 7 psi.

31x19 Aluminum Radiator
160* Thermostat
1995 Taurus electric cooling fan and shroud
PSM variable fan controller

'78 Lincoln C6 Transmission with "F" apply servo
'78 Lincoln factory stall converter

Dyno image here:

http://forums.corral.net/photopost/s...hp?photo=67290

My dyno simulations all show this combo should make peak horsepower at 6000 RPM. Any idea why it would be peaking at 4500?

Any other suggestions, questions or recommendations?

91 Crown Victoria Ex-Police -- 460 powered! 14.3 at 97 MPH 1/4 mile with stock tires, 4000 lbs, stock 78 Town Car converter, C6, 3.08 gears.

87 Mercury Cougar XR7 -- T5 trans, 400 RWHP, supercharged 302!

Last edited by 1FSTCAT; 01-18-2011 at 09:54 AM.
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 09:33 AM
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Carb is waaaay too small.

When to much is just right
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 10:16 AM
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With 217/230@.050" I don't think you are gonna get much higher than that.

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 10:54 AM
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1. Chassis dyno's and engine dyno's will have totally different curves.
a. Road drag, (tire contact), increases as speed rises.
b. Driveline parasitic losses become logrythmicly more as speed rises
2. Dyno SIMULATIONS are rarely correct in the first place.

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 11:11 AM
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carb, intake,cam,and some other things need to go

RICH
CIRCLE (R) 815 712 8738
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcomprandy View Post
1. Chassis dyno's and engine dyno's will have totally different curves.
a. Road drag, (tire contact), increases as speed rises.
b. Driveline parasitic losses become logrythmicly more as speed rises
2. Dyno SIMULATIONS are rarely correct in the first place.


true

RICH
CIRCLE (R) 815 712 8738
--------------------------------
815-712-8738
BUY,SELL, or TRADE B B FORD parts
Dynoed or Test ran
CLYINDER HEAD PORTING
COMPLETE ENGINES avb
From STOCK to NOT
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 11:34 AM
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You could weigh it on an accurate scale, and then take it to a track to get the 1/4 mile mph. There are calculators that will determine hp with this info.

Where's my beer and that half inch wrench?

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...cecar066-1.jpg
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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I believe it weighed in a 4050 with me in it. Best quarter mile time was 14.3 at 97 MPH.

RMCOMPRANDY - Are you suggesting that the dyno graph looks "right" to you?

BOSS 429 - Why do those things need to go? What are you proposing?

From everything I can find to read, the carb is properly sized. The A/F ratio on the dyno shows that it's running rich, if anything. Do you think that's because the carb flows plenty of fuel, but not enough air?

Ultimately, I would like to make this combo run as best as possible. In the future I plan to turbo or supercharge the current ingredients and try to make close to 500 RWHP.

I know that the compression ratio is not optimal for that. I also know that the rods and pistons are questionable at that power level, aren't they?

Can I boost it the way is, or will I have to build an entirely new combo anyway?

Could I get away with a set of heads and a cam and then boost it later, for the final push to 500, or is there just no chance in hell that the rods and pistons will stand up?

91 Crown Victoria Ex-Police -- 460 powered! 14.3 at 97 MPH 1/4 mile with stock tires, 4000 lbs, stock 78 Town Car converter, C6, 3.08 gears.

87 Mercury Cougar XR7 -- T5 trans, 400 RWHP, supercharged 302!
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 01:48 PM
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Sorry, I didn't see the numbers in your sig.

According to http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

You are making about 303 RWHP. A very realistic number for a mild 460.

Where's my beer and that half inch wrench?

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...cecar066-1.jpg
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 03:00 PM
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Applying a 20% driveline loss to the graph numbers (294 HP, 387 lb/ft) it works out to 367 HP and 484 lb/ft torque. That's spot-on for a mild build.

You'll pick up a little in your ET's, especially off the line, if you'll loosen up the converter a tad (a stocker just ain't gonna cut it, no matter what the year). MPH won't change much.

The 3.08 gears are hurting you, too. Swapping to 3.55 or even 3.73s would be a another tenth or two if you don't mind giving up a little roadability. Off the line performance would increase drastically, especially if you paired it with a looser converter (say something in the 1800-2000 range).

Brad
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 03:25 PM
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There's no way that combo will peak at 6000rpm, the 4500rpm is more realistic for the combo. You have a well matched combo as is, I wouldn't start slapping parts on without looking at the system.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilly View Post
There's no way that combo will peak at 6000rpm, the 4500rpm is more realistic for the combo. You have a well matched combo as is, I wouldn't start slapping parts on without looking at the system.

I agree. My first Fox with a 460 (20 years ago) went 111 mph with mostly stock stuff.

Where's my beer and that half inch wrench?

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...cecar066-1.jpg
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilly View Post
There's no way that combo will peak at 6000rpm, the 4500rpm is more realistic for the combo. You have a well matched combo as is, I wouldn't start slapping parts on without looking at the system.
A well MATCHED combo ... yes. But, quite a bit optimistic on the power expectations.

To get even near 500 RWHP would require;
1. larger ratio rear gears
2. more stall speed
3. more camshaft
4. 3" exhaust system
5. probably better heads
6. different intake manifold
7. probably, a few more cubic inches

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 06:26 PM
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1FSTCAT,

Let me first say that you have a nicely built combo. Everything is well matched for the level that you're at.

I'm kind of puzzled when you say, "My dyno simulations all show this combo should make peak horsepower at 6000 RPM", when you got a custom cam from Scott. Scott would have told you a cam with those specs is going to hp peak around 4500-5000 rpm. It takes a lot more cam to peak at 6000 rpm. Your cam can rpm to 6000 rpm, but that doesn't mean it will peak there, as you have found out.

As far as you reaching 500 rwhp with your combo, the easy way, and cheapest, would to buy a 6-71 or 8-71 supercharger, a Blue Thunder blower intake, and 2 Holley supercharger carbs. The only thing you'll have to do to your existing set-up is double key the crankshaft and install a 3-inch exhaust system. The engine will idle even smoother, and you'll have god-awful torque everywhere. As long as you keep the engine redline under 6000 rpm, you'll be fine with the equiment you got.

Hope that helps,

Dave
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-18-2011, 06:26 PM
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Cool

I have two dyno jet dyno sheets of very similar combos the difference being that I ported the heads.

Your numbers correspond very closely with the numbers i experience on as regular basis with that type of combo. Your flywheel hp is in the 400 hp neighborhood as installed in the vehicle. My typical numbers for that combo are in the 305 to 315 range with a 9" rear end and C-6 with a mild stall convertor.

Your HP peak is not at all out of line either.

If you are looking for better numbers you need:

More static c/r. If you are not at 0 deck your static c/r is easily under 9 to 1.
RPM intake
Large valve better flowing heads.

Randy's statement regarding the variables on a chassis dyno are in my experience absolutely correct. Hell low tire pressure can cost a bunch of power by itself as can strapping the vehicle too tightly down on the roller.

Do you have the light yellow secondary spring in the vacuum secondary dashpot? Your secondarys may not be opening all of the way. I often see this with vac sec carbs...




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Last edited by The Mad Porter; 01-18-2011 at 06:28 PM.
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