Dissapointing day at the track, wont rev above 5000 - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2012, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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Dissapointing day at the track, wont rev above 5000

Finnally got the car to the track after I thought it was running great. First run of the day was the best with a 1.8 60' and a 12.2 at 113mph in the 1/4. The rest of the day it wont run slower ranging from 12.4-12.9s but all would result in the same 5000ish rev limit. Its like the engine wouldnt rev beyond like valve float. No popping in the exhaust and the A/F was prob alittle on the rich side. I had 15* timing intial and 35/36* total by 2800rpms. Yet every time i got to 5000 its like it wouldnt pull or increase in RPMs. By the end of the day my trans wasnt shifting when I wanted it to when i was manually shifting which threw off my times even more.

car is a 1987 firebird, with 3000 stall C6 and ford 8.8 with 3.55 gears, tires are 295/60r15 MT drag radials. Car prob weighs around 3400-3600 with me in it.

Engine specs:
521 with 10.8:1 compression
Out of the box eddy 95cc heads, 120lb seat/320 open hyf flat tappet springs good for .700" lift and steel retainers.
edelbrock torqer II intake
lunati 241/249 .582/.6 hyd flat tappet cam, Jomar stud girdle and scorpion 1.73RR, 3/8" trickflow .080 moly pushrods

Ignition
mallory 685 box, mallory promaster coil, recurved duraspark


Is it me or does this seem like valve float? What else can it be bc its killing my 1/4 trap speeds/time.
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post #2 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2012, 08:56 PM
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Possibly an electrical issue? The Mallory 685 box appears to have a built in rev-limiter function. Perhaps that is malfunctioning? I can't imagine that you have a issue with the engine in this case.

1967 Mustang coupe, Mustang II front suspension. W/RV camed, D3VE headed, 460/C6 (soon to be 557 CID w/ported police interceptor heads) out of the box BBC headers(with homemade steel adapters)

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post #3 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2012, 09:37 PM
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is your pump up to the task the manual pumps ive used didnt seem that good. get rid of that hyd cam or put solid on it with stronger springs 140 -150 on the seat and 360-380 open. i ran a voodoo cam change to solid went from 12 teens to 11,50s. here's my cam clay smith 258 258 @ .050 .615 .615 145 sp on seat 370 open been to 6700 on hose out the back end. not saying to run my cam but get a solid. i wish you were in michigan for my friends and myself to see a ford in a firebird to coooooool

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post #4 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2012, 09:55 PM
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Just a thought but is your carb throttle linkage allowing full opening of the butterflies? Have someone stab the throttle while you check under hood.
You never know, maybe it's something simple.

If it was rev limiting you should be able to hear it miss in the exhaust.

67 mustang street car, 1977 460, 212 degree cam, 2500 converter, 3.50 gears, RHP Edelbrock heads
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post #5 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2012, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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MP40, I thought that too so i maxed out the RPM limiters and HS retard. I also went as far as to disconnect the connections so the HS retard didnt accidently come on.

Quick52, The pump is an electric aeromotive 150gph, pump is at 7-7psi solid and never gets below 6psi. Honestly all the greif Im getting with this cam/valvetrain i should get a solid. But to swap cams i will have to pull the engine. But I might have to since my trans is now being alittle funky with WOT shifting. In order for me to pull the trans i have to yank the motor (PITA). I thought You could run solid lifters on the voodoo cam? If i could I might consider that but the lifters are all pretty quiet at idle now. If your ever out in NJ you could see it! I had a few guys come over scratching there heads... they all think its a pontiac motor at first, but its always "thats a big @SS motor!"

NickBay, Yes i checked the carb linkage when i put the new 1000cfm prosystems carb on... at WOT The linkage is at WOT as well as the butterflies. IT def wasnt rev limiting the engine ran fine but at around 5000 it just stopped reving like it couldnt rev any higher. Im alittle pissed if its the springs... would have thought edelbrock would have put the correct springs in the assembled heads for the intended application.
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post #6 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2012, 11:08 PM
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i had too much spring psi on a hyd cam before,it did just like yours.....pull one and check it.
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post #7 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 08:33 AM
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That cam in a 521 should rev to 5500, I do wonder about the Edelbrock valve springs whether they are stiff enough.

The shifting, I would check your kick down, mine was pulling the lever a bit too far and would not shift into 3rd, but that was leaving it in drive. Either that or maybe you do have a high speed governor sticking problem.

67 mustang street car, 1977 460, 212 degree cam, 2500 converter, 3.50 gears, RHP Edelbrock heads
best ET 12.01, mph 112.98, 60ft 1.69

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post #8 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 09:19 AM
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customblackbird when i did dragweek 2010 lunati rep were there and they told me that you could run solid lifter on the voodoo cams. one of the bbc guys was doing it. when i was using the voodoo 61604 i had all kinds of rpm problems 5000 was it. was told by LSM to up the spring pressure to 140 on the seat and that worked i could take it to 6000. but i still change to a solid cam over the winter best thing i did with performance. they say the cam im running is not good for power but when i go to the track it lays down some pretty good number for a 472 stock bottom end in a 3870 lbs truck

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post #9 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cool40 View Post
i had too much spring psi on a hyd cam before,it did just like yours.....pull one and check it.
Too much or too little spring pressure? How is having too much spring pressure going to cause something like this? I know if you have too little spring pressure then you can get valve float.
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post #10 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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That cam in a 521 should rev to 5500, I do wonder about the Edelbrock valve springs whether they are stiff enough.

The shifting, I would check your kick down, mine was pulling the lever a bit too far and would not shift into 3rd, but that was leaving it in drive. Either that or maybe you do have a high speed governor sticking problem.
WHen you set the kickdown (im running a lokar setup kit with kickdown and throttle) You set the throttle to WOT and then pull the kickdown has hard as possible. Then release the throttle (keeping the kickdown stop in place) and tightening it down. Correct? thats what my lokar instructions say?

I remember when I called edelbrock and lunati on the valve springs that they both said they would work if edelbrocks rates are what they say they are. Edelbrock also said that the heads are suppose to have a single spring but they have a internal "dampner spring" or smaller coil spring inside.
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post #11 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quick 52 View Post
customblackbird when i did dragweek 2010 lunati rep were there and they told me that you could run solid lifter on the voodoo cams. one of the bbc guys was doing it. when i was using the voodoo 61604 i had all kinds of rpm problems 5000 was it. was told by LSM to up the spring pressure to 140 on the seat and that worked i could take it to 6000. but i still change to a solid cam over the winter best thing i did with performance. they say the cam im running is not good for power but when i go to the track it lays down some pretty good number for a 472 stock bottom end in a 3870 lbs truck
Ok thats what i thought I could do. Im alittle afraid of solid cams as Ive never delt with them before.

How did you bump seat pressure? Shims? what size shims did you have to use? I would love to throw in a .030" shim under all the springs and just call it a day But i have no idea what that would give me lbs wise.

The other thing is that I dont have a spring tester... nore do i know where I can rent one. Summit has a procomp one for 66$ that has to be used in an arbor press or vise and its good for either 0-300lbs or 0-600lbs. But this requires removing the springs to test them, plus I have to get them at the right installed height in the arbor press to get an accurate reading. I dnt want to spend alot of money on a spring tester as I will prob never use it again or much for that matter.
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Originally Posted by customblackbird View Post
Too much or too little spring pressure? How is having too much spring pressure going to cause something like this? I know if you have too little spring pressure then you can get valve float.
too MUCH psi will mash the oil out of your hyd lifters. it would idle fine and act like it'd pull a house down but as the rpm come up the power would fall off.i started it with a valve cover off one day and when i shut it off i saw every rocker that was at or near full lift drop when the engine stopped. i put springs on it and all was well. any time i've tried to run a hyd cam over .580 lift the springs become a problem.JMO this was a .588 crane back in the 80's,lol.....and also the last hyd i've ran in a BBF.
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post #13 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
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customblackbird when i did dragweek 2010 lunati rep were there and they told me that you could run solid lifter on the voodoo cams. one of the bbc guys was doing it. when i was using the voodoo 61604 i had all kinds of rpm problems 5000 was it. was told by LSM to up the spring pressure to 140 on the seat and that worked i could take it to 6000. but i still change to a solid cam over the winter best thing i did with performance. they say the cam im running is not good for power but when i go to the track it lays down some pretty good number for a 472 stock bottom end in a 3870 lbs truck
Yes single pattern cam, never work in a Ford or so you will be told. I find believe more in results than in anything else. When someone says I can make you faster tell them to send the parts for free, you will run it and if it does what they say you will buy them, otherwise send them back...

Hydraulic cams are for Grandma's stationwagon, not performance!

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post #14 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 04:17 PM
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Ok thats what i thought I could do. Im alittle afraid of solid cams as Ive never delt with them before.

How did you bump seat pressure? Shims? what size shims did you have to use? I would love to throw in a .030" shim under all the springs and just call it a day But i have no idea what that would give me lbs wise.

The other thing is that I dont have a spring tester... nore do i know where I can rent one. Summit has a procomp one for 66$ that has to be used in an arbor press or vise and its good for either 0-300lbs or 0-600lbs. But this requires removing the springs to test them, plus I have to get them at the right installed height in the arbor press to get an accurate reading. I dnt want to spend alot of money on a spring tester as I will prob never use it again or much for that matter.
you really need to test your springs to see where you are. i use a summit brands height mic. and a 0-600 spring presure gage its about a $100 for both but worth it playing with these cars i have a tester that is a summits brand that will check the spring on the car too i think i paid around $80-$100 for it work ok for checking

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post #15 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2012, 04:28 PM
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if you know what your installed height is or able to check it. if so take your springs and retainer to a shop to be check put a tie wrap on the valve stem so you dont have to worry about them falling it works good. try to get around 140 on the seat. think they will check your springs for $20-25 and you can get your shim form them.

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