96 EEC-IV OBD 1 460 Build advice....> - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-17-2012, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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96 EEC-IV OBD 1 460 Build advice....>

About Me:
I own an Automotive Garage
www.bartuning.com


I have access to excellent machine shops and performance machine shops in Houston, Texas

I don't have a budget within reason! haha

I have a 1996 Fleetwood Pace Arrow Class A Motorhome.
It has the Ford F53 Chassis and is powered by a fuel injected EEC-IV 460.
The rig has 35k miles on it.

The rig makes 400 ft pounds of torque and I would REALLY like at least 100-150 more.

Since the Motorhome weighs a LOT it did not have to be OBD II for 1996.

The engine is stock and the 4R100 4speed Auto OD Transmission has been rebuilt and beefed
up with all of the goodies available for it including a billet converter.

What options are available to upgrade this engine and keep the fuel injection.

I need to keep the power range low from approx 800-4000 range and the camshaft needs to be
something RV/Towing specs with stock like idle.
I run this coach on Regular unleaded 87 octane. It gets about 6mpg so I do not want to run supreme.

I know I am going to have to upgrade heads and cam and exhaust.
Aftermarket aluminum heads anything available thats good?

What aftermarket performance intakes are avail? I am having a heck of a time finding something.

ANY advice or suggestions are greatly accepted and appreciated.


Have a great day
Mike
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-17-2012, 09:26 PM
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contac Scott (mad porter on the forum)
think he has a program for exchanged upgraded efi stock intakes.

either way won't hurt to talk to him
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-17-2012, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks!
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-17-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Staley View Post
About Me:
I own an Automotive Garage
www.bartuning.com


I have access to excellent machine shops and performance machine shops in Houston, Texas

I don't have a budget within reason! haha

I have a 1996 Fleetwood Pace Arrow Class A Motorhome.
It has the Ford F53 Chassis and is powered by a fuel injected EEC-IV 460.
The rig has 35k miles on it.

The rig makes 400 ft pounds of torque and I would REALLY like at least 100-150 more.

Since the Motorhome weighs a LOT it did not have to be OBD II for 1996.

The engine is stock and the 4R100 4speed Auto OD Transmission has been rebuilt and beefed
up with all of the goodies available for it including a billet converter.

What options are available to upgrade this engine and keep the fuel injection.

I need to keep the power range low from approx 800-4000 range and the camshaft needs to be
something RV/Towing specs with stock like idle.
I run this coach on Regular unleaded 87 octane. It gets about 6mpg so I do not want to run supreme.

I know I am going to have to upgrade heads and cam and exhaust.
Aftermarket aluminum heads anything available thats good?

What aftermarket performance intakes are avail? I am having a heck of a time finding something.

ANY advice or suggestions are greatly accepted and appreciated.


Have a great day
Mike
The ONLY way you are going to reach your low RPM goal is with a positive displacement supercharger kit from somebody.

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-17-2012, 11:18 PM
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545 budget stroker = 85 more cubes and 4.5 inches of torque building stroke. Im not sure about the extra cubes working okay with stock efi, but you could try it and tell us about it. Someone else may have that particular experience. I would say that a longer stroke like the 4.5 crank with just a minimal overbore .030" would be the easiest way to get torque at that low rpm and not go too crazy with a big cam and other less street friendly power adders.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-19-2012, 09:48 AM
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I've got some answers, but also more questions.

The key thing to understand about the EEC-IV injection system you have is that the injected motors have different cylinder heads with different port placement. Although headers are available for these, i believe all the performance intake manifolds are for the earlier non-injected heads. Same for aluminum heads.

You may have fitted uprated parts from the 4R100 transmission, but I believe you've fitted them to your E4OD, not a 4R100. The 4R100 has modulated converter lockup, and the E4OD does not. To make a 4R100 work, you would need to change the ECU.

And that's part of your issue. You need an electronic transmission controller, and the one you have is part of your ECU. It's a Speed Density system which means that any significant mods will need its programming to be altered, which can be done, even though many tuners will try to foist you off with a MAF conversion, and possibly a separate transmission controller.

You'll need to select a cam that allows torque to increase as manifold absolute pressure increases, in effect, good vacuum at idle. Otherwise tuning your SD system gets more difficult.

Your request for much more torque was very specific, and I think the replies you've got were correct in that context.

However as I also have a 460 engined RV, I'd question if that' s what you really need. Mine may be smaller than yours at 15200 lbs GWVR, but I do tow with it, and I do go up hills, and it's been on I-75 in Colorado. I can still arrive at corners WAY faster than I can get around them.

I've just done a rebuild with cam, headers, minor intake port work, CR to 9:1, decking the block, no head work yet, and an ECU retune, and while I have no
idea how much more torque I have, the difference seems significant. I run on 87 octane with no detonation issues; I'm told the block decking is crucial here, so be prepared to take your engine out of your RV; an adventure all on its own!

I'm also doing an economy retune, and that has exposed some interesting issues, like not running in closed loop. It's also given me some insights into gearing issues. My latest belief is that 460 RVs may be geared too high, and could perhaps use more gears, and perhaps a slightly wider rev range (which also means retuning the transmission). A Gear Vendors Overdrive may be useful here.

So how are you really using this RV, and why do you say you need that much more torque low down. I have more in the 1800 - 2100 range which is useful, but I suspect the 2000 - 2400 range would be better. I have nowhere near the increase you're asking for.

If you want to pull hills fast, or tow lots, then keeping the torque you have from 1500 to 2400, but having more in the 3200 to 4800 range could accelerate you a lot faster, and keep you in a higher gear after the upshift. And that may be more achievable.

So,

What is your RV weight, along with whatever you tow?

What do you want it to do that it doesn't now?

Maybe the advice on those questions will be more useful to you.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-19-2012, 10:19 AM
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The OP asked for a 25% to 37% increase in low speed torque yet still use the production fuel injection and ECU controls.
Supercharging, (or turbocharging), is the ONLY way to get that amount of increase yet remain pretty much with the same basis.

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-19-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcomprandy View Post
The OP asked for a 25% to 37% increase in low speed torque yet still use the production fuel injection and ECU controls.
Supercharging, (or turbocharging), is the ONLY way to get that amount of increase yet remain pretty much with the same basis.
Ummm, I'm not sure if you're responding to my post, but if you are, then this statement from my post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp_t98
Your request for much more torque was very specific, and I think the replies you've got were correct in that context.
was intended to convey that I think you gave good advice.

And I still think you answered the OP's very specific question correctly.

My reply was about his specific request having not many solutions, and perhaps he'd get by with other mods.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-19-2012, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp_t98 View Post
Ummm, I'm not sure if you're responding to my post, but if you are, then this statement from my post
was intended to convey that I think you gave good advice.

And I still think you answered the OP's very specific question correctly.

My reply was about his specific request having not many solutions, and perhaps he'd get by with other mods.
YES, it was not a response and meant solely to be a statement ... I was just clarifying that getting the result the OP wanted is not SIMPLY possible.

Sorry, if there was any confusion.

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CUSTOM ground camshafts
Carburetor modifications for specific applications
CNC porting

Last edited by rmcomprandy; 06-19-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-19-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
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Sorry, if there was any confusion.
No problem; it seems I may have been the one starting the confusion.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-19-2012, 07:18 PM
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Hi Mike, I drive a 95 Bounder F53 460. Same engine tranny (E4OD) combo. The best bang for the buck is a Banks Power Pack kit. I added Banks to my 460, 8 years ago and was well impressed. Note how your stock engine rolls over at about 3200 RPM. With the Banks exhaust it will pull strong to about 4000 RPM. I suggest you start with the exhaust and then if you want more you can start ripping her apart. See the included link to see what Banks dyno says you get for your $$. Best place to purchase Banks for your MH is either Ebay or Camping world.
http://bankspower.com/products/show/127/63

Richard

Last edited by RLS7201; 06-19-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-19-2012, 07:38 PM
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Garage
Have you thought about using a some sort of chip? The Moates Quarter Horse is made for the Ford EEC IV/V ECUs. There may be a compatible MAF based ECU out there that can be modified. I have started a project to convert a '71 460 to SEFI and EDIS 8. As this engine will be going in a car, I can't/won't use OE EFI heads/intake.
More TQ at lower end-go bigger or get blown (some sort of power adder).
I have a F250 SD 4x4 with a 6.8l V10. It's a '99. I wish I had an '03, with 3V heads and tunable runner intake and about 75 more HP! I have a banks kit on this truck, and it does make a difference. I towed a 25' 5th wheel back from MT to CT this spring and was glad that the transcommand was locking up the converter like it was. I had no issues in the 2500 mile trip.
It ain't gonna be cheap, and it will be some work.
Good luck,
MikeH
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-20-2012, 10:56 AM
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Stroker? More tourque? The op stated that he wasn't afraid of machine shops or some engine work. Is there a reason that a longer stroke wouldn't work for low end torque? I've heard of a 557 in tow a truck running over 100k. Is this somehow not possible? I see no reason why a low rpm 4.5" stroked engine wouldn't make say 50-75 ft lbs more than stock. Even more with a cam, tuning, long tube headers and less restrictive exhaust. I have no experience with the larger cubes on the factory efi though. Some port work on the heads making them a little less dismal and more efficient will help.

If im completely out of my mind let me know.

The factory efi will still be the ultimate liming factor. But will it sustain the 450 ft-lbs the op is asking?
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