Ate 2 cams on break in. Need advice. - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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Ate 2 cams on break in. Need advice.

Hello. Have been around the forum but rarely post however I have a pretty bad situation and need advice. My buddy and I are building a 521 pump gas engine and we've ruined two cams on break in and Geezuz it sucks. I did do some research on here and we covered the usual culprits like wrong cam pin, cam bolt bottomed out etc and we even replaced the new timing gear with another one because we thought it looked maybe suspect. Second time we even went with a different cam manufacturer. Followed the prescribed break in procedure 2500rpms for 1/2 hour, used break in addative from the cam manufacturer. The only thing we didn't do either time was remove the inner valve springs during break in (everyone we know says it's not needed nobody does it) so I wonder if that is maybe the cause of our problem. Also double checked with both cam manufactures in regards to proper valve springs, push rods, lifters and spring pressure etc. First time around with the comp cams xe274 the engine lasted about 75mi then sheared the cam pin and ground up the cam bearings also messed the cam up on one lobe but not terrible. lifters were ok. Second time went with Lunati 10340703LK (227/233 at .050), puchased the lifter kit so we got everything correct for the this cam. Got harder cam bearings this time. Broke in the engine it ran great, for about 4mi. Haven't had it totally apart yet (my buddy who is the mechanic is understandably a bit burned out as am I) but the cam is chewed up on 2 or 3 lobes and a couple lifters were hard to get out. Also we noticed even though the cams came from different companies they're both sourced from the same blank supplier in I assume China somewhere and even from the same lot number or whatever ya call it so maybe the Chinese sent the U.S a bad batch of metal? who knows but we'll be talking to Lunati tomorrow. At this point any help would be appreciated. Thanks. (BTW I'm not very experience if you haven't guessed but I'll do the best I can to supply correct info etc).

What I got:
block D1ve-a2b
heads (72 police) D2oe-ab
probe stroker kit
compression is 9.75 to 1
comp cams roller rockers.
Hydrollic flat tappit cam.

Last edited by scott gettings; 01-01-2017 at 10:03 AM.
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 12:43 PM
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Which spring package do you have on your cylinder heads?

You say you didn't remove the inner spring. Are you referring to the flat wound damper spring or another spring inside the outer/damper or outer???

Spring installed height?

Seat and open spring pressure(s)???

Almost every flat tappet cam you'll find is ground on a CWC blank which is cast in Mexico. Only solid roller billets are made in the USA.


Oil type?



S

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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Which spring package do you have on your cylinder heads?

You say you didn't remove the inner spring. Are you referring to the flat wound damper spring or another spring inside the outer/damper or outer???

Spring installed height?

Seat and open spring pressure(s)???

Almost every flat tappet cam you'll find is ground on a CWC blank which is cast in Mexico. Only solid roller billets are made in the USA.


Oil type?



S
Until I get a hold of my buddy(he may also post under my name but he's not very familiar with online forums) who is the one who knows what he's talking about I can type in what's on my recipe(sp?) from comp cams, I hope it is what you need if not just let me know. The engine was originally going to be roller but we decided against that however both comp and lunati said the springs would work for my flat tappet.

I made a note while on the phone to comp cams: 112@1900 installed at the seat open 355 @ 1.200

924-16
valve springs, for 920-974
741-16
steel retainers, 1.550"
611-16
super valve locks, 11/32"
503-16
valve seals, 11/32" ptfe

Forgot about the spring removal question, i'm not sure, i'll have to ask.

Also we used castrol 10-30 the first time and 10-40 the second.

thanks.

Last edited by scott gettings; 01-01-2017 at 02:56 PM.
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 03:24 PM
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I took my inner springs out and used Joe Gibbs BR break in oil. Never had any trouble.

Joey
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 09:42 AM
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my 521 ate 2 lunati cams on an engine stand. the first one ran thru 5 gallons of 110 octane before going flat. i thought it was probably something that i did. researched a429 heads about valve clipping, checked timing chain runout and clearanced the cam retainer plate, took the brand new heads back to the machine shop and had him check the heads for spring pressures and coil bind. 125/325 spring pressures and was assured were okay and no valve kssing was evident. he told me that i did not need to remove the inner springs. he said in his experience with spring pressures that low it was not necessary to remove the inner springs. i put the motor together did it again paying special attention to drag on the lifter bores. flat again after a half an hour or so. by now i am depressed and beginning to doubt my skills. took the engine back apart to the shortblock again on the engine stand , ordered a cam research cam broken in on the fixture, took the heads back to the machine shop and had him look at them again and told him to remove the inner springs. greased the cam up again with the correct cam lube being even more careful than before. I followed the cam company's recomendation for using VR1 oil and breakin lube additive and it solved the problem. it is a PIA to reinstall the springs but I am glad I removed them. i don't know if i could have got away with breakin with the inner springs in utilizing the cam broke in on the machine or not but i wasn't going to take the chance again. i ran the cam in on the run stand for several hours felt confident the engine was good , reinstalled the inner springs, ran in the motor again for 30 minutes or so and reinstalled in the 65 f100 sb. i have several hundred miles on it now. no leaks no noises and runs like a booh. I would never install a flat tappet cam again without putting light break in springs on the heads or removal of the inner springs even on a break-in stand and i could not imagine the work to install a motor into a vehicle multiple times to change a cam out.



jim

ford truck freak

Last edited by fomocoloco; 01-02-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for the replies coming in we really do need the information and hopefully will get some more things to think about.
Fomocoloco I can't say that it is good to here someone has had the same misfortune we have but it is good to hear maybe we've figured out what's going on and someone has been there before, it sounds exactly like what happened to us. Thanks. Yes my friend who's doing the work has been a really stand up guy though the whole thing. Wish I could help more but I'm really just a wrench fetcher.
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott gettings View Post
I made a note while on the phone to comp cams: 112@1900 installed at the seat open 355 @ 1.200

924-16
valve springs, for 920-974
Do you know how the springs are installed on your heads, or just the factory specs?

If you don't know the actual installed specs and pressures as they're installed on your heads, you're just taking shots in the dark.

.
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
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Do you know how the springs are installed on your heads, or just the factory specs?

If you don't know the actual installed specs and pressures as they're installed on your heads, you're just taking shots in the dark.

.
Honestly no I don't know I/we went off what both comp cams and lunati told use. I did give them my numbers off the heads and mentioned they're police heads somewhat similar to CJ heads and they both seemed unconcerned about the difference. If my police heads require different specs than typical 429/460 heads how do I find out what the specifications are?
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by scott gettings View Post
Honestly no I don't know I/we went off what both comp cams and lunati told use. I did give them my numbers off the heads and mentioned they're police heads somewhat similar to CJ heads and they both seemed unconcerned about the difference. If my police heads require different specs than typical 429/460 heads how do I find out what the specifications are?

What Carl was referring to is the actual (as installed in your heads) spring installed height. This can have a dramatic effect on spring tension. Spring open pressure is what kills a cam during break in. REMOVE THE INNER SPRINGS.

I do not use shelf oils with additive for break in. I use a DEDICATED break in oil that is high in ZZDP and low in detergent which competes with the ZDDP.

All of the lifters in our cam kits are notched to provide additional oiling. This significantly reduces cam failure rates.
A .010" flat is ground from the oiling band to about 80% of the distance to the lifter crown. This offers additional oiling to the lifter crown / lobe interface as the lifter traverses the lifter bore with out creating a full time but rater a metered leak. Chevy did this to their 2.8L lifters to eliminate cam failures with the soft cores use at that time.

Measure and adjust spring installed height if needed.
Remove inner spring.
Use proper break in oil.
Use a good break in grease. I use JG driven. There are others. The red glop that comes with the cam kits??? Not for me.




S

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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 06:11 PM
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You definitely need to find out what the installed height of the springs are and spring pressure as has been mentioned.

I once destroyed an Edelbrock Performer RPM cam & lifters when breaking in a new cam/engine.

On the second time around I had the inner springs off & used a bottle of comp cams break in juice. Everything went fine from then on. But I like Scotty's idea better of using break in specific oil and not just a bottle of the break in juice.

Taking off the inner springs to break in the cam is a TOTAL PAIN IN THE A** if the motor is in the car.

Putting them back on with the motor in the car is an even bigger P.I.T.A.

...but the biggest P.I.T.A. is having to buy yet another cam & going back through the motor to get all the metal out....again.


With that being said I didn't see where you mentioned disassembling the motor and cleaning everything out to get the metal out. If you didn't do this the first time and you have now destroyed two cams you could also have bearing damage from metal getting blown through your oiling system. We know you now have to do this a third time. Don't make yourself have to rebuild the motor after you get it back together again by trying without cleaning out the metal. Get the motor out, get it apart and get the block tanked to get all of the metal out of it. Inspect the bearings and all of the rest of the parts for damage and get it back together. Don't take any more short cuts or the fourth time is just around the corner. The people who told you to break in the cam with 355#'s of open spring pressure on a hydraulic flat tappet cam with all the valve springs installed were wrong.

Sorry this happened to you but i have been there myself. It just sucks.

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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Talked with my builder he tells me the installed spring height is 1.860 it was set at the machine shop and my builder also checked them himself. He also checked to make sure the lifters were turning properly, oil pump was oiling and circulating etc. He is also planning on complete disasembly and taking it to the shop to get it dunked because he wants all that metal out of there as you've mentioned, we didnt do that the first time because there was very little actual cam damage just the soft babbit cam bearings.
Also we'll remove the inner spring and follow the proper P.I.T.A. break in procedure along with getting good brake in fluid.

I'll call lunati and ask about the 355 open spring pressure. Don't know why they would tel us that but I'll check. Any idea what it should be?

Yeah you're right it does really suck.

Thanks Madporter and MrSharfenberger.
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott gettings View Post
Talked with my builder he tells me the installed spring height is 1.860 it was set at the machine shop and my builder also checked them himself. He also checked to make sure the lifters were turning properly, oil pump was oiling and circulating etc. He is also planning on complete disasembly and taking it to the shop to get it dunked because he wants all that metal out of there as you've mentioned, we didnt do that the first time because there was very little actual cam damage just the soft babbit cam bearings.
Also we'll remove the inner spring and follow the proper P.I.T.A. break in procedure along with getting good brake in fluid.

I'll call lunati and ask about the 355 open spring pressure. Don't know why they would tel us that but I'll check. Any idea what it should be?

Yeah you're right it does really suck.

Thanks Madporter and MrSharfenberger.
Lunati should have recommended spring pressures for your cam. They will also sell valve springs for that cam with recommended installed height. If your current springs aren't close and you need new valve springs you could get those. The Mad Porter may be able to fix you up with valve springs cheaper than the Lunati ones that will be of the same spec. Just do the research. You are making progress despite the frustration.

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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 07:53 PM
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Hey since you said you were a bit of a novice with this stuff did you know you can get a new cam that is pre-broken in? In my opinion that would be the way to go here. Yes it is extra money but it saves the total P.I.T.A. work to remove inner valve springs and then putting them back on once the break in is done. Especially if the motor is in the car.

I also think you ought to give The Mad Porter a call before you buy an "off the shelf", "one size fits all" cam. Depending on what you want to do with this vehicle he could spec out a cam for you that will give you more bang for your buck. I know I'll never buy an off the shelf cam again. The custom grind cams are the way to go. Especially if you are trying to make power and not just get from point A to B.

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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 08:37 PM
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I still have never taken the inner out,and never hurt a cam, going to test run a new engine,new cam in a week or so. You just have to check stuff, lube, good oil etc. i understand why you guys do it., i just dont,never have

feel bad for the op, sucks

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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 08:39 PM
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what are the valve spring specs for this cam?

RICH
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Last edited by BOSS 429; 01-02-2017 at 09:59 PM.
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