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Oiling issues?

3K views 9 replies 4 participants last post by  Blue Bomber 
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#1 ·
OK, been doing quite a bit of work on my old truck... When I replaced the heads, can, timing set I noticed while priming the system that the number 5 rocker was getting the least oil, not dangerously minimal, but noticeable... My question is, (I haven't studied the oiling, obviously) where does the oil to the timing set come from, and secondly will lack of proper lube to this area cause the cam bolt/eccentric to continually back off...?
I cleaned the cam bolt hole and used red loctite, torqued to 35ft-lb. It backed off in less than 50 miles of driving. Tore it down and cleaned again (bronze bore brush, drill, brake cleaner) fresh loctite, new bolt, re-torqued, now its backed off again less than 100mi... Backs off far enough for the tab on the eccentric (2 piece) to break causing fuel flow to stop, and me to shout words that make prostitutes blush....
The continual removal of the front end has allowed me to get a lot more efficient with tear-down though....haha
 
#3 · (Edited)
The timing set and front cam bearing get oil from the main oil passage from the filter boss. Some oil is bled out of the front of the bearing housing.

If you have a two piece eccentric on a typical double roller timing set it will not seat properly especially if the washer is not applying force over a large enough area of the cam gear. Using a 1 piece eccentric with the factory bolt and thick washer will address this.



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#6 ·
waiting game



So I ordered the one piece eccentric to attempt to fix this issue... only it's been on backorder for a while, estimated ship date keeps pushing... It is currently estimated to ship 1 May... ordered originally 30 Jan... ridiculous

last time this happened I waited more than a month for a fan shroud from a different vendor, and thus forgot, and ordered another from a separate source only to receive them both on the same day...
 
G
#5 ·
Good Info from Crankshaft Coalition:

This was copied from Crankshaft Coalition's page, and confirms that it isn't and oiling issue... pretty much word for word what happened twice on my 460, but apparently happens with small blocks too.

by: Cobalt327, Jon

I recently ran into a problem with SB Ford fuel pump eccentrics that caused me to be towed home.

There are two versions of the Ford fuel pump actuating eccentric that may be bolted to the 'snout' of the camshaft. There is a very early version used on some 221 CID engines as well, but will not be discussed as I do not see much in the way of usage.

The first and most often seen is the one piece, cast iron eccentric. It is basically a foolproof piece of hardware. The second version is the two piece, Ford cost reduced stamped sheet metal version. These are not foolproof on an engine with anything more then an OEM camshaft.

I'll discuss the 2 piece version and why it's a poor idea for any engine with a performance camshaft.

This eccentric is bolted to the camshaft, but rests on the timing gear and is driven by a tab which extends into a hole in the timing gear. It's fairly light duty and can fail by having the tab ripped off, especially if you have a camshaft that has a less then smooth low end idle and fairly heavy valve springs. What happens after the tab breaks off is that the eccentric can revolve around the bolt, with the fuel pump arm not operating. This - based on the author's recent history and subsequent research. The timing gear drive dowel pin is well recessed. This dowel pin is 1" long

The second and better version is the cast iron one piece eccentric. While it too is bolted to the camshaft in the same manner, resting on the timing gear, it is driven by a 5/16" alloy steel dowel pin that goes through the eccentric, the timing gear and into a hole in the camshaft. As a note, this dowel pin is also the driver for the top timing gear, so the material does need to be reasonably good. This dowel pin - OEM, is 1-3/8 long

The one piece eccentrics are available from several sources like Summit and Jegs as well as anywhere that sells the Ford performance parts. There are two versions available, one for 3/8" retaining bolts and the other for 7/16" and are in the $20 to $25 range.

The drive dowel pin was discontinued by Ford on August 25, 2010. Luckily McMaster Carr has an acceptable substitute but it might have to be shortened for some camshafts. This is the McMaster Carr part number 98381A587 and is 5/16 x 1-1/2, 20,000 lbs shear strength/Rockwell C47/ASME B18.8.2. This pin MIGHT need to be shortened by 1/8" as the 'official' size is 5/16 x 1-3/8". The determining factor is that the pin cannot project into the eccentric cavity - the retaining bolt washer must be flush with the inside of the eccentric. The author's Ford SVT 'E' camshaft needed the full 1-1/2" length.

A note, a good brand 5/16" drill bit shank could be used in an emergency only

The eccentric mounting bolt should be torqued to 45lb ft. I recommended that an ARP 255-1001 (3/8") bolt be installed dry, but with thread locker.

Since the harmonic balancer removed, this will need to be torqued to 90 lb ft when reinstalling.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Confirmation, Correction, & Recomendation

...I cleaned the cam bolt hole and used red loctite, torqued to 35ft-lb. It backed off in less than 50 miles of driving. Tore it down and cleaned again (bronze bore brush, drill, brake cleaner) fresh loctite, new bolt, re-torqued, now its backed off again less than 100mi... Backs off far enough for the tab on the eccentric (2 piece) to break causing fuel flow to stop...
If you have a two piece eccentric on a typical double roller timing set it will not seat properly especially if the washer is not applying force over a large enough area of the cam gear. Using a 1 piece eccentric with the factory bolt and thick washer will address this.
As The Mad Porter stated, the issue you are experiencing is likely associated with a mismatch of fitment between your 2-piece fuel pump eccentric and the aftermarket timing set. Very few aftermarket timing sets are machined so as to allow the 2-piece eccentric to properly seat against the cam gear. You need to either, 1) correct the fitment issue, or, 2) use an ultra-elusive and hard-to-find 1-piece fuel pump eccentric.

_______________________________


...

There are two versions of the Ford fuel pump actuating eccentric that may be bolted to the 'snout' of the camshaft. ...

The first and most often seen is the one piece, cast iron eccentric. It is basically a foolproof piece of hardware. The second version is the two piece, Ford cost reduced stamped sheet metal version. These are not foolproof on an engine with anything more then an OEM camshaft.

I'll discuss the 2 piece version and why it's a poor idea for any engine with a performance camshaft.

This eccentric is bolted to the camshaft, but rests on the timing gear and is driven by a tab which extends into a hole in the timing gear. It's fairly light duty and can fail by having the tab ripped off, especially if you have a camshaft that has a less then smooth low end idle and fairly heavy valve springs. What happens after the tab breaks off is that the eccentric can revolve around the bolt, with the fuel pump arm not operating. This - based on the author's recent history and subsequent research. The timing gear drive dowel pin is well recessed. This dowel pin is 1" long

The second and better version is the cast iron one piece eccentric. While it too is bolted to the camshaft in the same manner, resting on the timing gear, it is driven by a 5/16" alloy steel dowel pin that goes through the eccentric, the timing gear and into a hole in the camshaft. As a note, this dowel pin is also the driver for the top timing gear, so the material does need to be reasonably good. This dowel pin - OEM, is 1-3/8 long

The one piece eccentrics are available from several sources like Summit and Jegs as well as anywhere that sells the Ford performance parts. There are two versions available, one for 3/8" retaining bolts and the other for 7/16" and are in the $20 to $25 range.

The drive dowel pin was discontinued by Ford on August 25, 2010. Luckily McMaster Carr has an acceptable substitute but it might have to be shortened for some camshafts. This is the McMaster Carr part number 98381A587 and is 5/16 x 1-1/2, 20,000 lbs shear strength/Rockwell C47/ASME B18.8.2. This pin MIGHT need to be shortened by 1/8" as the 'official' size is 5/16 x 1-3/8". The determining factor is that the pin cannot project into the eccentric cavity - the retaining bolt washer must be flush with the inside of the eccentric. The author's Ford SVT 'E' camshaft needed the full 1-1/2" length.

A note, a good brand 5/16" drill bit shank could be used in an emergency only

.
The above report does not apply to the 385 Series and is not correct as far as fuel pump eccentric material, design, etc.

The original 1-piece fuel pump eccentric for the 385 Series is made of hardened steel, not cast iron. Also, it does not have a tab to tie itself to the cam gear, nor does it accommodate a cam dowel, in order to secure itself to the cam gear/camshaft. The 385 Series 1-piece fuel pump eccentric relies only on the clamping force provided by the bolt torque, and it works just fine.

_______________________________


...I ordered the one piece eccentric to attempt to fix this issue... only it's been on backorder for a while, estimated ship date keeps pushing... It is currently estimated to ship 1 May... ordered originally 30 Jan... ridiculous
The 1-piece fuel pump eccentric has not been manufactured for decades, and probably won't be manufactured ever again. If you really want one (and I don't think you need one), then I can offer you one for $35 with bolt and washer. I have very few remaining and would rather not sell them...again, the cheapo stamped steel 2-piece eccentric will work just fine if set up properly.
 
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#8 ·
Thanks for the input Mr. Kane, but why in your opinion, do you not think I need one?

I've had a few pretty days in February, have gotten it torn down, and sure enough, 2nd broken tab in less than 500 miles.. I just snugged the cover and waterpump back on, as it may be a while before a fix arrives...

what might I be missing when installing the eccentric? I consider myself mechanically inclined, though not very experienced with Ford engines, I am open to the fact that I may be doing something stupid or at least amateur when torqueing/installing. (The tab has <1/16" play in the dowel recess, so I recall ensuring it was rested as far counterclockwise as allowed when it was tightened... my assumption being that there would be no "slap" if the bolt backed off. Bolt backing off allowing it to spin was my assumption the first time this happened...)
 
#9 ·
Was the bolt actually loose when the eccentric spun? If not,I would suggest the bolt it too long and bottoming out or the washer is too thin or both. If you don't already have them,get an OEM washer and bolt but still check to see that the threaded hole is deep enough.
 
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