C6 overdrive conversion...Is it really woth it? - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 04:05 AM Thread Starter
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C6 overdrive conversion...Is it really woth it?

greetings all,
I am considering purchasing an over drive unit from Gear Vendors for my C6 transmission.
I have an RV with a 460 c.i. matched to a C6.
TheRV is about 30 feet and is a 1989 .
Is the cost really woth benefits in fuel savings, wear on the motor and tranny?
The motor screams at 70 MPH. No tach .
The cost is $3, 400 plus a bigger tranny cooler, larger fluid ports in the tranny to get a higher volume of fluid, new tran's hoses, shorter drive shaft. ET...
About a $5,000 expense.
I am willing to consider other options.
I am planning on a trip to Alaske in about 2 months so I want to give the RV as much help as I can plus save some $$$ on fuel cost.
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 07:59 AM
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I am running a gear vendors unit in my pickup and I love it. You have to consider the cost. It will increase gas mileage and cruise speed, but,think this through. If you slowed down to 60 mph you would probably get the same result. Also, you will not get back any investment at resale time. Don't get me wrong, it's a great unit and you will love it. It's just a lot of money and it will take many trips to pay for itself. Randy.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 08:28 AM
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Garage
How about changing the gears in the rear end?

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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 12:53 PM
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Personally, I would prefer an E4OD installtion over a Gear Vendors. Yes you need a stand alone computer to run the E4OD, however, the E4OD has TCC lock-up which will further help fuel economy and lower engine rpms. Also, the E4OD has a deeper overdrive at 29% overdriven as compared to GV at 22%. That overdrive ratio is not a big difference. I think a big part of the goal will be having or not having torque convertor lock-up (TCC). Pulling a heavy vehicle with a lot of resistance will always cause a torque convertor with no TCC to generate more heat and slip higher in the stall-range when you shift from 3rd into overdrive. This is because you have less mechanical leverage and the trans input shaft becomes harder to turn. This puts more load on the torque convertor. So, to maintain the same vehicle speed you step on the pedal more to get more torque out of the engine to compensate for less leverage. Sometimes, the rpm drop you'd get on the shift is almost washed-out because the convertor is running higher in the stall range from the greater resistance. You will never see as much RPM drop as you'd expect by looking at the ratios. Torque convertor slip can be anywhere from 200 to 1200+ rpms, with TCC that will drop to zero. When you have a torque convertor with a clutch inside (TCC), as the clutch applies it creates a direct mechanical connection and have zero slip through the convertor. It will be as solid as a clutch in front of a manual transmission.

Ford never made a C-6 with TCC.

I haven't done this swap, but with an E4OD installation some of the hurdles I can forsee would be you'd need to move the crossmember back a little ways, reconfigure one cooler line, shorten the driveshaft and run a stand alone computer. The computer is pretty darned affordable at Baumann Engineering. The E4OD will be more expensive than the GV and I am not sure by how much. However, I think it is worth it. I have plans to perform an E4OD swap into my 79 F-350 crew cab-----after the truck is restored.

If you decide to go with a Gear Vendors, for the greatest benefit I would recommend one of the low-stall towing type of torque convertors to be installed at the same time.

Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 03:51 PM
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if youre serious about fuel economy then change to a diesel, lol

just another dual quad 545 :-)
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 04:04 PM
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ive done a few of these,and they are great, stick with a worry free c6,

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 06:28 PM
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od

I have 83 460 c/6 it tachs about 2800 at 70 [ABOUT 9TO12 MPG]tops in a gas rig, kinda like mentioning hotrod and gas mileage the switch to od is not going to be worth the investment IMOP just set the cruise 65 or so turn the radio up alittle and cruise. Even if u had od it would be shifting in and out alot its a big box buy alot of gas verses the change over cost..Bill
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 07:26 PM
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http://www.ford-aod.com/
probably quite a bit overkill but... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AOD-P...Q5fAccessories


that kit is $800~, a trans/tc is $1000~, misc $500 (cooler, driveshaft maybe, linkages etc...) ... $2500 or less should be very doable.

Last edited by SLOWnSTEADY; 11-21-2010 at 07:36 PM.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-21-2010, 10:47 PM
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As Carl mentioned you might want to swap to a smaller rear gear. To compliment such a swap you could put a wide ratio gear set in the C-6. The wide ratio gear set in the trans will have a lower first and help retain some of pulling power in 1st gear.

Tell us what gear ratio and tire size your RV has.


Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-22-2010, 12:59 AM Thread Starter
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Tires and axel ratio

First, Thank You all for your incredible insights and suggestions.
Tires are : 8R195
Axel ratio is unknown.
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-22-2010, 01:25 AM Thread Starter
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Axel ratio

I looked through the owners manual and the axel ratio is not specific

It's either a 4.56 Rockwell 411 Medium Heavy Model
or:
Dana HD 80 4.63 Heavy model

it's reading as John Deer RV 1000---007265--

I was considering towing a Nissan Sentra. But I do not have to. If by changing the axel gears, I forfeit the heavy towing, I can get a motorcycle and tow it.

Thank again to all you considerate people.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-22-2010, 08:18 PM
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The rpms were figured using 8R19.5 tires at 33" tall and non-lock-up convertor coupling at 1.1:1. Coupling ratio will vary a bit depending on grade, wind, weight or anything that changes resistance against the vehicle's movement. Most likely, ratio would go up from 1.1:1---meaning slightly higher engine rpms for same vehicle speed. In this application I would suspect 300-400+ rpms of loss through the convertor with no Torque Convertor Clutch (TCC).

4.11 gear at 70 mpg you'd be at 2929 rpms or w/non TCC 3300-ish,

4.56 gear at 70 mph you'd be at 3250 rpms or w/non TCC 3500-ish

4.63 gear at 70 mph you'd be at 3299 rpms or w/non TCC 3600-ish

Non TCC represents the rpm loss through the torque convertor.


Coupling ratio w/Gear Vendors caculated at 1.1:1. Although the coupling ratio would likely be higher due to decreased leverage when engauging the GV.

4.11 gear at 70 w/C-6 & GV about 2600-ish

4.56 gear at 70 w/C-6 & GV about 2850-ish

4.63 gear at 70 w/C-6 & GV about 2900-ish


4.11 gear at 70 w/E4OD & TCC-on in 4th would be 2079

4.56 gear at 70 w/E4OD & TCC-on in 4th would be 2307

4.63 gear at 70 w/E4OD & TCC-on in 4th would be 2342



Some other gear ratios that may be a feasible swap.


3.50 gear at 70 w/C-6 2494 w/non TCC 2800-ish

3.73 gear at 70 w C-6 2658 w/non TCC 3000-ish

If the RV is slow with the current gear, the RV will feel like it can't get out of it's own way with these smaller gears.




When Gear Vendors came out, the other option was changing the gear. Then the vehicle was still either undergeared or overgeared for the changing terrain. GV found a happy medium. But, that was then, and this is now. I feel the E4OD better meets the desired goal.


----------------------------H O W E V E R-----------------------------

The cheapest way to go would be to drive at 55-60, enjoy the scenery and keep the $5000 for fuel.


Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-23-2010, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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One more question

The Rv is getting a tune-up. I have one arm & cannot do this properly as the engine is a dog house.
The mechanic said the passenger side maifold gasket is blown.
So, does the head need to be "measured" to see if it is warped?
Second, is their a gasket I can have him install on the manifold that will not blow again?
I do believe the gasket is blown as I heard the distinct "TAP-Tap". The "Tap" was not loud. But the gasket is relativly new that blew.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-23-2010, 07:47 PM
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gasket

Yeah i know manifolds are not easy to get to,neither are the damn spark plugs i have used the factory gaskets that has the silver i guess asbestos side or maybe double them or the permatex coppercoat sealer and no its not ur heads. Bill
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-23-2010, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigblockfairlane View Post
Yeah i know manifolds are not easy to get to,neither are the damn spark plugs i have used the factory gaskets that has the silver i guess asbestos side or maybe double them or the permatex coppercoat sealer and no its not ur heads. Bill
Thank You Bill.
I suspect if anything, the manifold may be warped.
I will have the mechanic get asbestos gaskets. or double up a stock set.
Thanks again.
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