big block and toploader combo? - 460 Ford Forum
Driveline Transmission, Clutch, Gearing, etc...

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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-20-2013, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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big block and toploader combo?

I am working a project and for all intents and purposes just say I am working on a rat rod. I bought what was said to be a 460 Manuel bell housing I brought the bell hosing to a shop when I purchased my 4-speed top loader. The guy said it looked like a 400 bellhousing so he pulled one he had in back that he was positive was a 400 and it was identical. He then pulled a 460 bell housing off the engine dyno all the bolts lined up except for the starter position. In conclusion do I have the wrong flywheel orbelhousing for my build? The engine is a 385 series 460bb out of a 1994 truck.



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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-20-2013, 07:48 PM
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I plan on running the same set-up in my '37 AND the Ansen scattersheild/bell-housing could well be from a 400!!.

It bolts to the empty block I'm using to mock up mounts etc however you have alarmed me re the starter motor position, something I hadn't considered.

Like you I await comment on this.

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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-20-2013, 07:48 PM
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How many teeth are on the flywheel? What is the casting number on the flywheel and bell housing?

A 400 flywheel will not bolt up to a 460. One in the picture looks like an external balance 460. Was the 460 bell housing he had a scatter shield? Reason I ask is the lakewood scatter shield had the bolt holes for the starter rotated.

A 400 bell housing will bolt up to a 460. Just a matter of making sure you have the right flywheel, clutch, and starter for what you are doing.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-20-2013, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68xr7cat View Post
How many teeth are on the flywheel? What is the casting number on the flywheel and bell housing?

A 400 flywheel will not bolt up to a 460. One in the picture looks like an external balance 460. Was the 460 bell housing he had a scatter shield? Reason I ask is the lakewood scatter shield had the bolt holes for the starter rotated.

A 400 bell housing will bolt up to a 460. Just a matter of making sure you have the right flywheel, clutch, and starter for what you are doing.

He included the flywheel in the sale you are right its a 460 externally balanced correct me if I am wrong but that is what I need because My 460 is a later series externally balanced. His bellhousing was stock ford it had the ribs on the outside not the inside like mine.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-21-2013, 02:28 AM
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If yours is a 1994 460 then yes it should be external balanced. If you look behind the damper you should see a "hatchet".

As far as the bell and all it is like stepping into a hornets nest. 400 bells can be a problem behind a 460. Some say they are shorter and the later external balance 460 flywheel is thicker causing the PP to hit the bell. Some say is only a problem if you use a 3 finger PP.

Some have used a 3/8" spacer to space the bell back, some have had luck with an 11" diaphragm clutch. I know using a 390 flywheel and clutch along with the 400 starter has worked, although some have said they need to use the 390 starter. You would have to get the 390 flywheel balanced for your engine.

You also need to be concerned about your input shaft length. BB use a shorter input shaft than SB. From the picture looks like a BB input, but not sure. You can have the pilot in the outer or inner step. Need to mock everything up and measure and see where your input shaft ends up. You should have the 1.375" inner step and be able to use a SB pilot bearing, but best to check as lots of variation on stuff.

Another consideration is how you intend to use this rat rod. Is it just a cruiser and not shifting over normal stock RPM or will it be higher RPM and a performance clutch? If the later may want to consider a quicktime bell and the FRRP billet flywheel for safety sake.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-21-2013, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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here are pictures of the top-loader. do I want the big block top-loader or small block?

So I should keep the flywheel and find the correct bell housing?






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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-21-2013, 10:42 PM
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THIS AN EASY ONE, FIRST THE TRANS YOU HAVE IN THE PIC IS A BB TRANS,NEXT

Use THE 400 351m BELL, and a 390( NET ) BALLANCE FLYWHEEL,AND STOCK 460starter,or 400/351m


fact 429 FLYWHEEL WONT FIT IN 400 BELL

400 FLYWHEEL HAD SBF BOLT PATTERN

429 BELL WONT WORK WITHOUT 429 WHEEL


this is why there is 2 diff bolt patterens on scatter sheilds


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Last edited by BOSS 429; 05-26-2013 at 10:10 PM. Reason: bad keyboard.lol
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-21-2013, 11:01 PM
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EDIT: Did not see Rich's post. He knows this stuff well and a good source of information.

Well you have the shorter pilot on the input which is correct for a BB. What is the diameter of the input shaft splines. Is there a tag on the trans? If so what is the code?

As for the bell and flywheel depends on what you want to do. That flywheel I would not use for anything other than stock. It is cast iron and an explosion waiting to happen. If you want a simple way out you can just buy a flywheel and clutch kit from L&L.

http://www.landlproducts.com/list.aspx?cID=7

If you call them they can answer your questions and set you straight.

Or use a 390 steel flywheel and clutch assembly and have the flywheel re-balanced for your engine.

What do you have for a clutch fork?

As for the pilot bearing need to measure trans from the mounting face to end of input, then bolt bell to engine and measure from mounting face to crank to see where the pilot will be and then get the right pilot bearing.

I'm sorry is not simple answer, but is 40 years of different parts being mixed and matched and without know what came from where only so much can do over the internet. Comes down to identifying what you have and measuring. That spacer plate will need the center cut out to clear the 460 crank BTW.

Last edited by 68xr7cat; 05-21-2013 at 11:28 PM.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 07:18 AM
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[QUOTE=kpswans;1056523]here are pictures of the top-loader. do I want the big block top-loader or small block?

So I should keep the flywheel and find the correct bell housing?


what you have is a toploader used behind a 390 engine in mustangs/cougar etc . with 1-1/16 , 10 spline input shaft and a 28 spline output shaft --- big block 428/427/429 car input shafts measures 1-3/8 diameter with a 31 spline output shaft.
if you are just driving the car and using street tires with an occasional easy pass at the strip you should be fine -- put slicks into the mix and you are on borrowed time.
have the tranny rebuilt it probably needs it no matter what the seller told you about its condition,
bolt the bell housing up to your block/crank and check its depth to the pilot hole to make sure the input of the trans is long enough to engage the pilot bearing
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 10:11 PM
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fixed my post

what a diff a new keyboard makes


If you have a late 460 ext balance then you will need to rebalance the net 390 wheel. A good shop can do this,otherwise buy a scatter sheild,and a new flywheel for ext ballance

RICH
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BUY,SELL, or TRADE B B FORD parts
Dynoed or Test ran
CLYINDER HEAD PORTING
COMPLETE ENGINES avb
From STOCK to NOT

Last edited by BOSS 429; 05-26-2013 at 10:21 PM.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpswans View Post
I am working a project and for all intents and purposes just say I am working on a rat rod. I bought what was said to be a 460 Manuel bell housing I brought the bell hosing to a shop when I purchased my 4-speed top loader. The guy said it looked like a 400 bellhousing so he pulled one he had in back that he was positive was a 400 and it was identical. He then pulled a 460 bell housing off the engine dyno all the bolts lined up except for the starter position. In conclusion do I have the wrong flywheel orbelhousing for my build? The engine is a 385 series 460bb out of a 1994 truck.



how about a pic of the rear of the other bell?

RICH
CIRCLE (R) 815 712 8738
--------------------------------
815-712-8738
BUY,SELL, or TRADE B B FORD parts
Dynoed or Test ran
CLYINDER HEAD PORTING
COMPLETE ENGINES avb
From STOCK to NOT
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-01-2013, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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what about that aftermarket setup mentioned earlier can I just buy that and be good to go?
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