How much weight is saved with aluminum heads? [Archive] - 460 Ford Forum

: How much weight is saved with aluminum heads?


pencilneck
12-28-2006, 10:14 PM
Could somebody please refresh my memory, what is the total weight savings with the running of aluminum heads, all other things being equal?

richter69
12-28-2006, 10:18 PM
want to say its like 80lbs, your back will thank you when you need to pull one.

BB68coupe
12-28-2006, 10:25 PM
want to say its like 80lbs, your back will thank you when you need to pull one.

sounds about right..i can remember hearing it was around 100 when combined with an Al intake.

46686stang
12-28-2006, 10:51 PM
My Fox stangs front fenders raised up 1/2" when I switched to aluminum.

pencilneck
12-29-2006, 12:40 AM
Folks are going through lots of bucks to try to get good power out the the 4.6 modular engines in the Thunderbird and I'm wondering why I couldn't drop a bullet proof big block in there with as much aluminum as I can get on it to save weight? They did come equipped with a 5.0 so that would make more sense to build, I guess. The big block just makes so much torque and it runs effortlessly while making big power, those smaller engines always sound like they're about to blow up. That freaking 89 Tbird I bought the wife is a great handling car, I wouldn't want to ruin that with too much weight, though. :x :x :x I suppose I could use that same pricipal and run aluminum heads and intake on the 302 and build a light weight small block to suit the car better. Any strong opinions on the subject? Thanks, Roy

jpierce55
12-29-2006, 06:41 AM
4.6 weighs to much itself. I read an Edelbrock add once that claimed 70 pounds difference in their heads vs. the cast iron.

SCJF350
12-29-2006, 09:50 AM
I weighed my Kaase SCJ's when I did my rebuild. They were 60# lighter than the iron heads, on the bathroom scale I used. I don't remember all the specific weights, but do remember Heads, Aluminum Intake, & Aluminum Water Pump took off 100# from the iron parts. But I do think my aluminum fined valve covers were WAY heavier than stock.
Ken

68xr7cat
12-30-2006, 01:05 AM
4.6 weighs to much itself. I read an Edelbrock add once that claimed 70 pounds difference in their heads vs. the cast iron.

Never seen a 4.6L with cast iron heads... I assume you intended to say BBF since Edelbrock does not make a head for the 4.6L ?

Do you know how much a 4.6L ford weighs, since you feel it is too much ?

Steve

cougar1969
12-30-2006, 05:50 AM
4.6 weighs to much itself. I read an Edelbrock add once that claimed 70 pounds difference in their heads vs. the cast iron.

Never seen a 4.6L with cast iron heads... I assume you intended to say BBF since Edelbrock does not make a head for the 4.6L ?

Do you know how much a 4.6L ford weighs, since you feel it is too much ?

Steve


Yes some 4.6 came with Iron heads

Randy

jpierce55
12-30-2006, 07:00 AM
4.6 weighs to much itself. I read an Edelbrock add once that claimed 70 pounds difference in their heads vs. the cast iron.

Never seen a 4.6L with cast iron heads... I assume you intended to say BBF since Edelbrock does not make a head for the 4.6L ?

Do you know how much a 4.6L ford weighs, since you feel it is too much ?

Steve

I think what I stated was simple enough to figure out, especially for one such as yourself :roll:

I was stating a 4.6 weighs to much to consider it over a 460, it is not that much lighter esp a 460 with aluminum heads. I don't know overall weight, I do know block is 154 (iron) and heads are 44each. So A bbf block is like 220 and the aluminum heads about 40each. So what is the crank weight of the 4.6 I don't know, or the extra weight of the cams. Considering the size I imagine the intake weight is similar. The fact is that sbf and mod's are not as much lighter as people think. Even a 2.3L is not as much lighter as most think. Are you going to enlighten us all again?:roll:

I was stating the Edelbrock 460 heads are 70lbs less a pair.

68xr7cat
12-30-2006, 02:52 PM
Are you going to enlighten us all again?:roll:

No, you can stay unenlightened :roll:

I just hope others here will do some independent research before accepting your statement that the 4.6L is too heavy.

Steve
____________________________________
Got chrome moly rings?

jpierce55
12-30-2006, 03:12 PM
Are you going to enlighten us all again?:roll:

No, you can stay unenlightened :roll:

I just hope others here will do some independent research before accepting your statement that the 4.6L is too heavy.

Steve

Most anybody here who reads my posts knows I only like 4 bangers/6 bangers/ and big blocks. So no matter what a small block or modular is just a door stop to me. Don't believe me? Come over to the garage and look what my doorstop is.

I see no reason to ever use a 4.6 unless it is already in there.

Coupe Devil
12-30-2006, 03:17 PM
I suppose I could use that same pricipal and run aluminum heads and intake on the 302 and build a light weight small block to suit the car better. Any strong opinions on the subject? Thanks, Roy

Hey man check out http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/ Handles well and GOES LIKE STINK....Its a buddies car in Clarksvilel Tn. Its been in a couple magazines, Bruce is a great guy and will talk your head off if you start askin about the build on the car..

Thunderchild
12-31-2006, 01:53 PM
From FRPP's 2007 catalogue:

Did you know…
That an aluminum 4.6L block weighs approximately
85 lbs. while the iron versions weigh approximately 155 lbs.
Did you know…
The new 3-valve 4.6L engine in the 2005-07
Mustang weighs only 420 lbs. dressed.

7.5L/460 “SUPER COBRA JET”
550HP FORD RACING PERFORMANCE
CRATE ENGINE ASSEMBLY
Shipping weight approximately 670 lbs.

500 hp 4.6L's are pretty common nowadays. 600-750+hp doesn't take much more effort. They're nothing to sneeze at.

jpierce55
12-31-2006, 04:41 PM
From FRPP's 2007 catalogue:


500 hp 4.6L's are pretty common nowadays. 600-750+hp doesn't take much more effort. They're nothing to sneeze at.

I have seen 750hp supercharged 4.6L's and they don't last long at all, not the ones I have seen (and built by a pro 4.6 builder), that is with forged cranks, steel rods, and aftermarket blocks. I kind of figure for that money I would want something to last, esp. with $200 an hour tunning cost. Fast yes, something to sneeze at yes. It is no different then the rice burner engines; fast today gone tomorrow. But it is pointless to fight over.

670lbs? The BBF is a bit lighter than that I think? Seems like it would have to be since the listed weight of a stock iron headed 460 is 720lbs.

harleydave
12-31-2006, 09:09 PM
Am I the only one? My TFS A-460 heads are only 15lbs. lighter each, than big valve DOVE-C heads. (30lb. weight loss total.)
David

Jdean
12-31-2006, 10:06 PM
Using a bathroom scale, my D3 heads weighed 79lbs each. The aluminum Edelbrocks weighed 42 lbs. each. So the heads alone are worth 75lbs off the front. I bet the cast iron intake weighs a ton too, so 100lbs with AL stuff sounds about right. Dont forget that the cast exhaust manifolds are pretty heavy compared to a lot of even full length headers.

c.evans
12-31-2006, 10:47 PM
Hey guys,

It ain't nothing but common sense. The smaller alum. heads based on stock production architecture, such as the A-429, the Edelbrocks, the Blue Thunders, FRPP SCJs, and the TFS Street heads, are about 1/2 the weight of the cast iron production heads. 35 lbs. for an assembled alum. head is a valid number.

Then as you raise the intake port, you create a taller head, so all the A-460 heads will weigh a good bit more than those above. So will the matching intake manifolds.

Then when you raise the intake port even more, and go to the C-460 heads including the Profiler, you've created an even taller head, so by now the heads weigh 45 lbs. bare.

Finally the B.T. Thor head probally weighs the most of all the "wedge" based alum. heads.

Now then, if you want to talk about the cast iron EX 514 A-460 head? My hemorrhoids will tell you that they weigh 100 lbs. bare!!! :lol: :lol:

Hope this helps,

deerhunter3814
12-31-2006, 11:13 PM
Now then, if you want to talk about the cast iron EX 514 A-460 head? My hemorrhoids will tell you that they weigh 100 lbs. bare!!! :lol: :lol:

Hope this helps,[/quote]

I seen a set of the EX 514 heads at Lem's shop, and I believe they weigh every bit of that, they are a massive chunk of iron. :shock:

pencilneck
12-31-2006, 11:51 PM
Well if an iron 460 weighs 720 and I could save 100 pounds with aluminum parts we are looking at about 620. If the 4.6 weighs about 500 for 120 extra pounds I could be running a big block in there. An engine that could probably get 525 horsepower and idle down the freeway at 1600 RPM for a hundred thousand miles. An engine that doesn't take a rocket scientist to tune. I could move the battery to the trunk and save back half of the weight. Plus I only weigh 160 pounds. But you should just hear these guys at the modular sites, they are dropping thousands and thousands of dollars on computers and manifolds and superchargers and turbochargers and EEEKKK!!!:EEC's. It just never ends. The big ford isn't all that much heavier, and just look what it can do. It isn't as sexy, but isn't the simplicity of it just beautiful? Gas milage would suffer a little.... I measured the engine will fit in there. Couldn't I save some weight with a C4 for it, too?

68xr7cat
01-01-2007, 01:14 AM
If that is an 89 it is the first year of the new body. The 302 wasn't offered until 1991, the 4.6l took over in 1994. Car is based on the MN12 chassis, along with the cougar and mark 8.

The problem with putting a 460 in that car is the low hood. The engine will fit, although I don't think any off the shelf swap kits exist. As far as weight, hey if an extra 120 lbs over the nose is ok, than go for it. Even with battery in the trunk figure 100 lbs.

There are plenty of Fox body mustangs here with BBF power, so I'm sure some can chime in to give you an idea of the handling.

By the way, the D0VE and D0OE heads I've weighted came in around 62 - 65 lbs fully assembled. TFS lists their street head as 32 lbs bare. Most aluminum 4v intakes are around 22 -24 lbs. The factory one is supposed to be almost 60 lbs. An aluminum water pump is about 5 - 7 lbs lighter depending on the iron pump casting. So, ~100 lbs. would be about it. Also, don't forget there can be much weight in little things like accessory brackets.

I'd also keep in mind that car has an independent rear setup. I'm not sure how easy it will be to hook up 500+ hp and if it will take it. If you want a cruiser, imho a well built 302 will do the trick and having the overdrive of the AOD is nice, but hey the BBF has cool factor going for it - choose your poison.

Steve

jpierce55
01-01-2007, 06:20 AM
There are indeed some BBF T-birds on this site and most of them are also members of this site:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/bigblockfox/

So if you ask on the forum about the swap somebody will chime in.

Thunderchild
01-01-2007, 03:04 PM
...I have seen 750hp supercharged 4.6L's and they don't last long at all, not the ones I have seen (and built by a pro 4.6 builder), that is with forged cranks, steel rods, and aftermarket blocks. I kind of figure for that money I would want something to last, esp. with $200 an hour tunning cost...

670lbs? The BBF is a bit lighter than that I think? Seems like it would have to be since the listed weight of a stock iron headed 460 is 720lbs.

There are a lot of "pro" builders who butcher engine builds and, more commonly, butcher tunes. My stock engine didn't even make it off the dyno before the pistons cracked. I wouldn't expect a 700 hp engine to last 150k miles like a stock engine. But, with a conservative tune, you should get plenty out of it. That's the problem with most mod motor guys. They want to squeeze every hp out of it until they push it too far.

The 670 lbs is a shipping weight. I'm not sure if that includes crates and such. It may not include fluids.

philsfln
01-02-2007, 02:10 PM
guess I'm just not as smart as a lot of the guys on this forum, but I can tell you EXACTLY what my 545 weighed before I put it in the fairlane. Here's what it was equipted with when I weighed it. 545 short block with steel pan,edel aluminum water pump, small ford starter,regular ford flex plate, ford duraspark dizzy,scj aluminum heads, svo valve covers,1050 dominator, 1 wire gm alt. It weighed 576 lbs. They are lighter than you think :shock: with the aluminum stuff. I checked the scale against our bathroom scale by weighing myself and it was spot on. So there :) Phil63

philsfln
01-02-2007, 02:16 PM
guess I'm just not as smart as a lot of the guys on this forum, but I can tell you EXACTLY what my 545 weighed before I put it in the fairlane. Here's what it was equipted with when I weighed it. 545 short block with steel pan,edel aluminum water pump, small ford starter,regular ford flex plate, ford duraspark dizzy,scj aluminum heads, svo valve covers,1050 dominator, 1 wire gm alt. It weighed 576 lbs. They are lighter than you think :shock: with the aluminum stuff. I checked the scale against our bathroom scale by weighing myself and it was spot on. So there :) Phil63

Sorry I forgot to add the victor intake that is on it. 10.44 at 131 at 3450 lbs :D Phil63

dfree383
01-02-2007, 02:54 PM
If that is an 89 it is the first year of the new body. The 302 wasn't offered until 1991, the 4.6l took over in 1994. Car is based on the MN12 chassis, along with the cougar and mark 8.

The problem with putting a 460 in that car is the low hood. The engine will fit, although I don't think any off the shelf swap kits exist. As far as weight, hey if an extra 120 lbs over the nose is ok, than go for it. Even with battery in the trunk figure 100 lbs.

There are plenty of Fox body mustangs here with BBF power, so I'm sure some can chime in to give you an idea of the handling.

By the way, the D0VE and D0OE heads I've weighted came in around 62 - 65 lbs fully assembled. TFS lists their street head as 32 lbs bare. Most aluminum 4v intakes are around 22 -24 lbs. The factory one is supposed to be almost 60 lbs. An aluminum water pump is about 5 - 7 lbs lighter depending on the iron pump casting. So, ~100 lbs. would be about it. Also, don't forget there can be much weight in little things like accessory brackets.

I'd also keep in mind that car has an independent rear setup. I'm not sure how easy it will be to hook up 500+ hp and if it will take it. If you want a cruiser, imho a well built 302 will do the trick and having the overdrive of the AOD is nice, but hey the BBF has cool factor going for it - choose your poison.

Steve

I picked up a 1994 T-bird and the 460 swap looks to be pretty strait forward, Fox pan, Motor Plates and a set of mid or shorty headers should work. I talked with Bob at D&D about it a few months ago and his comments where the only hard part was the headers due to the weird steering arangement in them.

Fiberglass hoods are avaliable to solve the hood clearance issues

As far as the rear I've heard the live OK, but I would be scared of slicks. I also talked with a local superstock chassis fabricator and he said he has fitted several cars with strait axels and ladder bars and its pretty simple to do if you looking for something to handle the strip.

jpierce55
01-02-2007, 04:28 PM
The 8.8 can be made to be strong, but takes some work and money. I have never done it just know that people have.

BTW I weighed both the intake and bare heads today. OMG I didn't think the intake was that heavy, but 54lbs vs 18lbs on the Offy.

BB68coupe
01-02-2007, 07:41 PM
heavy? lets talk about iron headed FE's in early mustangs and the like. ouch! A lot of fox car guys do tubular k members and coilovers and between that and the requisite fiberglass hood, when installing an aluminum headed 385, your getting close to a wash.

PS happy new year!

Brad Johnson
01-02-2007, 07:45 PM
Now then, if you want to talk about the cast iron EX 514 A-460 head? My hemorrhoids will tell you that they weigh 100 lbs. bare!!!

Charlie, that's just way way too much information...

Brad

68xr7cat
01-02-2007, 11:12 PM
It weighed 576 lbs. They are lighter than you think :shock: with the aluminum stuff. Phil63

Well Phil I think your pretty smart :wink: , you got me thinking here. Problem with all this is knowing a good number for engine weight (and what includes). There is a site that has this, just cannot find it, but depending on what the engine was setup for weight varied a lot. I think the 720 lb. figure can be considered a high end number. I think we can say you will save x amount with an aluminum head, etc... but that don't help why yours is so light.

Now, started wondering since this stuff is cast how much difference there may be so I took some information from the block summit (thanks to them all) and put it into an excel sheet to see if there is anything to see:

http://home.comcast.net/~steter2/bs.jpg

If we just look at the blocks with a std. 4.36" bore we see they vary 32 lbs. :shock: . Even if we say the 200 lb. block was recorded wrong, we are still talking 26 lbs. If I have time I will input the sonic test information to see if a heavier block tends to have thicker walls. It will be interesting to see, the extra weight may or may not be in places of any use.

Now regarding the information I just posted, I took it verbatim from the sheets on the block summit page so if there are errors it is either recorded that way or I mistook what was written as sometime else. I'd welcome corrections, but prefer them from the block summit guys to try and preserve the accuracy of the work.

Steve

jpierce55
01-03-2007, 03:55 PM
The 720 includes the factory brackets/pulleys/accessories on the engine. I like to add to this post the fact that the factory intake was 54lbs vs 18 on the Offy Port-O-Sonic.

Your engine included the flexplate? Did you have a stud girdle on mains or valvetrain? The 545 crank is about 10+lbs (4.3" crank is 10) more than stock. Any pulleys? What block? Balancer?

I had read 580 for a stock 460 with aluminum heads/intake before.

Just trying to get a better feel for a weight range.

Powers1115
02-26-2007, 01:21 AM
No modular ever cam with iron heads.

Who ever said a loaded 3v modular weights less than 500lbs is crazy

an all aluminum 4v mod motor from FRPP ships at 669lbs.
all aluminum 3v is about 80-90 lbs less due to composite intake and smaller heads.

I will take the extra cubes and larger heads of a BBF even if that means the package is about 80lbs heavier than a mod motor. Also remember to make any power with a mod motor you need a power adder which adds ALOT of weight right out front.

darrin1999
02-26-2007, 08:09 AM
if you are really set on saving weight theres always the aftermarket aluminum block too... could probably save you that other 80 lbs

rmcomprandy
02-26-2007, 12:15 PM
harleydave - let's compare "apples to apples" so that aluminum A460 head should be compared to an Iron A460 head.

Pick-up one of your bare iron heads; that is real close to the amount of weight to be saved when using a pair of aluminum heads of the same type.

harleydave
02-27-2007, 08:49 AM
harleydave - let's compare "apples to apples" so that aluminum A460 head should be compared to an Iron A460 head.

Pick-up one of your bare iron heads; that is real close to the amount of weight to be saved when using a pair of aluminum heads of the same type.

10-4 :D :D

moparman
02-27-2007, 11:53 AM
No modular ever cam with iron heads.

Who ever said a loaded 3v modular weights less than 500lbs is crazy

an all aluminum 4v mod motor from FRPP ships at 669lbs.
all aluminum 3v is about 80-90 lbs less due to composite intake and smaller heads.

I will take the extra cubes and larger heads of a BBF even if that means the package is about 80lbs heavier than a mod motor. Also remember to make any power with a mod motor you need a power adder which adds ALOT of weight right out front.

I'm not saying that the 4v motor doesn't weight this much, but I have personally seen three of them, in the shop I used to work at, and we were able to put them on a regular engine stand, while the 460 that we built needed the extra heavy duty stand. Anyway, out of this shop came a 302 inch mod motor (4v) with a procharger I believe and it made 680 at the wheels. Then it ran out of blower. Expensive motor though, but they are strong and can be made to make plenty of power. Myself, for a t-bird, I'd build either a 331 small block or a 408. Put some ported Vic Jr's on it and go. I know this is a big block site, but you can make tons of power with a well built small block, and those little 408's are way torquey for the size of the package.
On a side note, down in Houston I saw a mustang once with a 400 chebby in it. Didn't really know what to think about that one. Course saw a 70's camaro in the silver state classic race with a ford in it. Kinda thought that was funny.

BigBlockRanger
02-27-2007, 12:43 PM
32v 4.6 weight? looky right here:

http://www.rangerpowersports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151330&highlight=weight

The scale does not lie. Iron block, aluminum head Mark VIII motor.

:D

Powers1115
02-27-2007, 12:53 PM
No modular ever cam with iron heads.

Who ever said a loaded 3v modular weights less than 500lbs is crazy

an all aluminum 4v mod motor from FRPP ships at 669lbs.
all aluminum 3v is about 80-90 lbs less due to composite intake and smaller heads.

I will take the extra cubes and larger heads of a BBF even if that means the package is about 80lbs heavier than a mod motor. Also remember to make any power with a mod motor you need a power adder which adds ALOT of weight right out front.

I'm not saying that the 4v motor doesn't weight this much, but I have personally seen three of them, in the shop I used to work at, and we were able to put them on a regular engine stand, while the 460 that we built needed the extra heavy duty stand. Anyway, out of this shop came a 302 inch mod motor (4v) with a procharger I believe and it made 680 at the wheels. Then it ran out of blower. Expensive motor though, but they are strong and can be made to make plenty of power. Myself, for a t-bird, I'd build either a 331 small block or a 408. Put some ported Vic Jr's on it and go. I know this is a big block site, but you can make tons of power with a well built small block, and those little 408's are way torquey for the size of the package.
On a side note, down in Houston I saw a mustang once with a 400 chebby in it. Didn't really know what to think about that one. Course saw a 70's camaro in the silver state classic race with a ford in it. Kinda thought that was funny.
I have personally built many mod motors.

The iron block dohc motor in my car right now with intake is over 700lbs. The aluminum block is 82lbs lighter.
A mod stroker 4v with a blower on it is a VERY heavy engine combo for 650rwhp. With the blower and related piping I would assume engine and blower to weight 720+lbs

An aluminum headed, intake, headered 460 is not as bad as people make it out. Buy a tubular front end, chuck the ac, and move the batt to the trunk. Your small block combo that you say is torquey is stroked. Let me stroke a 460, bore it, toss aluminum heads and the like on it and we can go at it on a track. By the time we would be done, we would have the same amount of money in each engine, the big block would weigh about 100 lbs more and would make about 150 hp more as well. I will take a 100lbs for 100+hp anyday.

Powers1115
02-27-2007, 01:00 PM
32v 4.6 weight? looky right here:

http://www.rangerpowersports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151330&highlight=weight

The scale does not lie.

:D

I have never weighed a B headed mark8 motor as I have never worked on any. Loaded 4v C head weigh 70lbs each loaded with cams. The aluminum block is 120 lbs, etc.