Att: Ford Lords, Can I bug you once again.........

Charlie once took the time to give me a complete re-build for my motor to get me in the mid 5's. I have been wanting to do that re-build for a long time now but money has been real tight this year, I mean real tight.

I have been running the 6.0 index class very successfully this year on a delayed shot of nitrous, now the money is getting so tight buying nitrous is really becoming hard for me and not only that, now my tranny blowed at pinks and I will have to prolly buy a converter, cooler and a rebuild for my glide if I am lucky and the damage is not more.

My question now is about getting my car to run 6.0 index in the heat on the motor without using nitrous and is it able to do it on the parts that I now have or will I have to buy something to make it do it.

My combination is as follows.

BODY:

All VFN fiberglass Body

Brand New Lexan Windows

All Aluminum Floor,Dash, and Tubs

Removeable Steering Wheel

Fully Carpeted Interior





CHASSIS

Certified, Full Funny Car, Mild Steel, Tube Chassis, (Was certified 7.50 until last year, has current 8.50 certification with some bars needing moved/added for new 7.50 cert. specs)

Weight Ballast (To add/remove up to 100 #’s of weight)



ENGINE:

OEM DOVE Block W/ Main Girdle and ARP Studs

OEM Crank

4340 Steel H-Beam Rods

TRW .400 Dome Pistons

Motorsport A429 Aluminum Cobra Jet Heads w/ Jomar Stud Girdle and ARP Studs

High Pressure Oil Pump

Fabricated 10 qt Oil Pan

Custom 2 1/8” Hooker Headers

Victor Intake (Port matched to heads)

1050 Holley Dominator

Trick Flow 4130 Chrome Moly Pushrods

Aluminum Roller Rockers 1.7 BBC

Doug Herbert Solid Roller Cam and Lifters 258/270@.50 291/303 685/683

Double Roller Timing Chain

SFI Motorsport Balancer

Motorsport Aluminum Valve Covers



TRANSMISSION

Powerglide

1.80 Straight Cut Steel Gear Set

Vasco input shaft

JW SFI Bellhousing

SFI Transmission Shield

Pro Tree Transbrake

Coan 8” Converter

Deep Aluminum Pan w/ drain

TCI Air Shifter

SFI Flexplate

Race Transmission Cooler



DRIVELINE

Chrome Moly Driveshaft W/ 1350 Ends

Forged Steel Yokes W/ Solid U-Joints

Strange 33 Spline Spool

Moser Nodular Iron Center Section

Moser Big Bearing Pinion Support

Richmond Pro 4:29 Gear

Strange Pro Race Axles W/ ½ inch Studs

9” Braced Rear with Tubes Welded



SUSPENSION

Strange Coil Overs Front and Rear Single Adjustable

Ladder Bars



BRAKES

Wildwood Front Dual Piston Disk Brakes

Aerospace Disk Rear Brakes W/ Slotted Roters

Wildwood Porportion Valve



POWER ADDER

NOS Big Shot Plate with bottle warmer and progressive controller.



Wheels and Tires

Brand New 32X14.5 Mickey Thompson Slicks

Brand New 24X4.5 Mickey Thompson Front Runners

15X15, 15X3.5 Weld Prostars



ELECTONICS

MSD 6AL

MSD 2 Step

MSD RPM Window Switch

MSD RPM Switch

MSD Start/Retard Switch

MSD Disributer Cap and Rotor Button

Autometer Monster Tach

Autometer (Engine, NOS) Fuel Pessure Gauges W/ Isolaters

Autometer Oil Pressure, Water Temperture gauges

Dedenbear Crossover Delay Box (Wired to take out for pro tree, no box, events)

Optima Yellow Top Commercial Starting/Deep Cycle Battery W/ Cut Off Switch

Charger Terminals on Body

Line Lock

Taylor Spark Plug Wires

Two Transbreak Switches (One adjustable delayed, other instant for delay box)

Jegs High Torque Mini Starter (High Compression)

ARC Pro Stock Switch Panel



FUEL, COOLING and LINES

All Braided Fuel, Transmission, Lines W/ Aluminum AN Fittings

Barry Grant 400 Fuel Pump W/ BG Fuel Filter

12 Gallon Plastic Fuel Cell

Magna Fuel Fuel Regulator (Engine)

Holley Big Port Fuel Regulater (NOS)

Meziere Electric Water Pump

Summit Aluminum Radiator

Twin Electric Fans



SAFETY

G-Force Cam Lock Harness (Good till 08)

G-Force Window Net

Kirkey Pro Street Seat

Two steel driveshaft hoops

The best performance I had in the cool spring weather was 6.15@ 111 with a 1.34 60ft on motor and 5.67@122 with a 1.21-1.22 60ft on a 175 shot. The car used to run 6.32 in mild heat and then go down to 6.20's during the night. Then troubles started. First the car started not stalling past 3,000 when the converter stalled 5600 before, I thought it was just fouled plugs because when I changed to a hotter plug the stall came right back. I then tuned on the chassis (all in the same night) I went back to the track and my 60ft was up in the 40's and I was running 6.40's in the heat but the converter didn't seem to have any problem and the car didn't seem to be spinning and it was going straight as an arrow. I was running a 5.70 index and usually it took a 175-200 shot to get me there depending on the altitude. This time it took 250 and my 60ft still was no where near what it used to be 1.30 range on the spray.

I know I screwed up hard by adjusting the chassis and fooling with the plugs at the same time now. But at Bristol 1/4 mile the car wouldn't go up on the converter again and even with a 200 shot it came out of the hole pulling up from 3,000 rpm and wouldn't run till it got past 5500 or so rpm. The best et was a 9.43 @ 143 with a 1.40 something 60ft.

I went to the pits and changed plugs because the others looked fouled again and set the idle mixture thinking it was fouling the plugs driving it in the pits. I went back out and same thing, but even worse time 9.80 something @ 140 something mph. I went to my pits pulled the plugs again after being towed back to the pits to keep the plugs clean, the plugs looked just a tad on the lean side. So I reinstalled and started, went down on the t-brake and mashed 3,000 flipped the throttle 3400 flipped again 3800, then held into it and in about 5 seconds or so the rpm came up and hit the 4200 chip then one second later a huge fireball came out of the engine compartment.

It blew my cooler all to crap and we found the front seal of the tranny laying behind the car in tranny fluid. What a day, I didn't even get to run with Rich doing the arm drop, and no wheels up lauches to beat that for the camera's. So now while it is still at the Dr's office what do you think this combination is good for, should it go 5.96-5.99 in the heat with tuning or is parts replacement a must. The car weighs 2400#'s and with me and my gear it weighs 2700#'s. Thanks in advance for your help and sorry such a long post but wanted you to know all about the car.

id say a comp cam 728 lift would help maybe 456 gear but thats just my 2 cents

id say a comp cam 728 lift would help maybe 456 gear but thats just my 2 cents

Changing gear is not an option as I run 1/4 and 1/8 but I have been told I need a bigger cam. Thanks

More [bigger cam] duration @ .050" lift for sure...then again...how much the heads flow and @ what lift is the missing link , IMO .

More [bigger cam] duration @ .050" lift for sure...then again...how much the heads flow and @ what lift is the missing link , IMO .

They are unported a-429 Cobra-Jets.

Also the air now starts about 4200ft and goes down to 3800 at night for a gross average.

One more addition, I also changed my tranny gear set from a stock 1.82 to the straight cut 1.80 during this slowdown. With Vasco input shaft.

Among all the other stuff/reasons, if it slows down when the DA goes down, do you think it might be lean?

Among all the other stuff/reasons, if it slows down when the DA goes down, do you think it might be lean?

No it speeds up when da goes down... My biggest question is this put simple, should high 5.90's be achievable with my current combination in bad air? Yes/No, if no what would it take? Thanks for all the help.

You know me, I'll say port and flow the heads! You made me go back and dig out some old notes, so here's the difference.

9-2-97 In Lem's handwriting. (We used to do a lot of flow testing together back then.) New, OUT of the BOX A-429 CJ heads with the SVO valve job. Hardison/Smith.

Intakes;
.100=69, .200=136, .300=205, .400=261, .500=283, .600=292, .700=298, .750=300 cfm. Total intake flow=1843 cfm

Exhausts; (without a test pipe)
.100=60, .200=104, .300=148, .400=172, .500=180, .600=183, .700=184, .750=184 cfm. Total exhaust flow=1214 cfm

11-20-97 Final flow test, after 42.5 hours of porting and flow testing.

Intakes;
.100=70, .200=150, .300=230, .400=286, .500=319, .600=337, .700=350, .750=355 cfm. Total intake flow=2096 cfm

Exhausts; (without a test pipe)
.100=56, .200=115, .300=160, .400=206, .500=225, .600=234, .700=233, .750=230 cfm. Total exhaust flow= 1458 cfm

As you can see, the old A-429 CJ heads weren't very good out of the box. I'd say your leaving a bunch of horsepower on the table.

Hope this helps,

You know me, I'll say port and flow the heads! You made me go back and dig out some old notes, so here's the difference.

9-2-97 In Lem's handwriting. (We used to do a lot of flow testing together back then.) New, OUT of the BOX A-429 CJ heads with the SVO valve job. Hardison/Smith.

Intakes;
.100=69, .200=136, .300=205, .400=261, .500=283, .600=292, .700=298, .750=300 cfm. Total intake flow=1843 cfm

Exhausts; (without a test pipe)
.100=60, .200=104, .300=148, .400=172, .500=180, .600=183, .700=184, .750=184 cfm. Total exhaust flow=1214 cfm

11-20-97 Final flow test, after 42.5 hours of porting and flow testing.

Intakes;
.100=70, .200=150, .300=230, .400=286, .500=319, .600=337, .700=350, .750=355 cfm. Total intake flow=2096 cfm

Exhausts; (without a test pipe)
.100=56, .200=115, .300=160, .400=206, .500=225, .600=234, .700=233, .750=230 cfm. Total exhaust flow= 1458 cfm

As you can see, the old A-429 CJ heads weren't very good out of the box. I'd say your leaving a bunch of horsepower on the table.

Hope this helps,

Yes it does help. I am not very smart at all this stuff but those flow numbers stock look awfully bad don't they? I have been under the understanding that since I am only running a 466 ci that porting my heads would kill it unless I upped the ci of the motor, I now take it that I am wrong and that the 466 ci need more head than the aluminum a-429 heads will flow out of box. I only spin the motor 6800-7200 and it's at 13.5 compression. So would I be correct that if I have the heads ported and a larger cam that I could gain more et? Also is there a head that you would would recommend over the a-429's that I would not have to port or change pistons or anything else, that I could put on with a cam change and gain the hp of the ported a-429's? If so I could sell my heads and buy a used set hopefully.

Port the heads - get a matching camshaft - get a new torque convertor - CHANGE THE REAR GEAR as you'll now need to rev it higher to get enough power.

Port the heads - get a matching camshaft - get a new torque convertor - CHANGE THE REAR GEAR as you'll now need to rev it higher to get enough power.

It went through the 1/4 at 7200 last time so gear change ain't happening. LOL

You're not gonna get near enough power at only 7,200 rpm with a 466.

With a 3.850" stroke, 8,000 RPM is about the right piston speed.

You asked what it would take; you can DO whatever you wish to do. All of us get disappointed once in a while. :)

You're not gonna get near enough power at only 7,200 rpm with a 466.

With a 3.850" stroke, 8,000 RPM is about the right piston speed.

You asked what it would take; you can DO whatever you wish to do. All of us get disappointed once in a while. :)

Stock crank, 8,000 rpm???????????????

This may help shed some light for you.

2900# with driver, 89 hatch, 466 out of the box Edelbrock rpm's, flat top pistons, 0 deck , 265/272 @ .050 -.728 lift 108c/l solid roller cam 1.76 glide 5200 conv. 4.30 rear gear 28/14.5 E.T. Streets, this car ran 6.18-6.19 in the heat Shifting at 6700 rpm

I think if this car were 200# lighter like yours if would be all over a 6 flat.......

I think all you need to do is bolt on a set of TFS Streets out of the box and your there 50more cfm should be around 80 hp heck that should do it.

List your A429's in the auction block and call Lem :wink:


Dang I aint talked so much since grand ma shot the mail man :lol:


Blake

Allan, I was running low 5.80's in my 67 stang that weighed 2800 lbs. It was tube chassis(strut front/ladder bar rear)That was with out of the box A429 heads & port matched Port-O-Sonic intake with a 1150 box stock dominator. Now granted I had 557 cubes. The cam had a little over .700 lift if I remember right. I can't remember duration. I was running a 4.29 gear with a 1.96 PG. My 60's averaged 1.28. I was running an ATI 8" converter with about 4500-5000 stall. I had 2 1/8 headers with a 4" collector. I am thinking a little more cam will get you where you want to go. But I am no expert by any means. :D

almost sounds like something going on with the sprag in the converter?

My heap ran low 6. teens in the heat on a slick starting line, this was at almost 3200#

I dont think your goal is gonna be too hard to acheive.

I know you can get into the 5's, with no bottle. My Ranger races at 2700 lbs. It's a 9.8 to 1 514, Home ported alum CJ's, .726 Comp roller, 1.76 'Glide, 1150 Dominator, 4.86 gears, 32" slicks.

If you can't run the 4.86 gears, you'll be at a big disadvantage. When I changed from 4.56 to 4.86, my short times dropped like a stone (et's, too). It will go low 1.23 to 1.26 in 60', and run high 5.80's

I'd say get more cam, port the heads, and talk yourself into the gears. :wink:

If I buy a cam for the heads I have now, a custom from Lem and it still don't go 6.0's and then I buy the heads, should the cam still work great with the other heads. Does anyone know where a used set of Trick Flow Street heads might be. I can sell my heads with a phone call.

If your A429's are untouched, there's a lot of power left on the table. You don't need to replace them to go 5's.....just port 'em or get somebody else to do it.

If your A429's are untouched, there's a lot of power left on the table. You don't need to replace them to go 5's.....just port 'em or get somebody else to do it.

Will I need just the heads ported ot heads and intake? Also how much does that cost? I figure by the time I paid someone to port the heads it would be cheaper to get another set of used heads. If I could only get Chris's heads without taking a second mortgage out lol.

So you guys think a port job and cam would do it?

Yes, do the intake with the heads. Porting, cam and gears should do it. You may notice I said my heads were "home ported". You may or may not feel comfortable doing it yourself. Been to Scotty's site? He can sure help in the confidence department. If you decide to farm the job out, the best advice and skills are on this forum.

Yes, do the intake with the heads. Porting, cam and gears should do it. You may notice I said my heads were "home ported". You may or may not feel comfortable doing it yourself. Been to Scotty's site? He can sure help in the confidence department. If you decide to farm the job out, the best advice and skills are on this forum.


Thanks to you and all the others for the help, after looking at all the head flow sheets I noticed that a bigger cam shouldn't help with my heads flowing what they do. I will have them ported or if I can find a set of used tfs street heads I will just swap. Then I will put the bigger cam in but still the gears ain't going to change. They just can't, I will not twist my stock crank over 7200 unless someone like Charlie tells me he guarantee's it should hold and still last for a reasonable amount of time. Through the 1/8 it is no problem but 1/4 mile with the hose it is a huge problem and I plan on racing 1/4 mile every time I get the chance lol. I am looking at going to Pinks all Out in Gainsville this Novemember. Again thanks to everyone for the help and Charlie maybe that A headed motor will make it next year.

If the engine is balanced correctly, there is absolutely no strength problem at 8000 RPM using a production crankshaft with good rods, pins and pistons.
The oiling system may be a different problem altogether however, that has nothing to do with the crankshaft being up to the task.

If the engine is balanced correctly, there is absolutely no strength problem at 8000 RPM using a production crankshaft with good rods, pins and pistons.

I have scat h-beams and trw aka speedpro pistons with the pins that came with them. So you would trust them??? It has been balanced and I have a main support and a girdle on the rockers as well. Arp's throughout

Well, when it comes to "smart", Randy is an awfully "smart feller", (notice that I didn't make the joke),,, and I think he gives good advice. I agree that a stock stroke 429 crank is very strong! There's lot's of journal overlap!

However, I did NOT notice before that you are running those heavy TRW slugs and heavy pins. So when the budget allows, that's something else I would change, and when you do that, you might as well go ahead and build a stroker shortblock, because it really doesn't cost anymore. Simply because of the weight of those heavy TRW pistons & pins, I personally wouldn't be reving it to 8,000, even if a billet crank were in there. You've also got 5/64" rings if I'm not mistaken,,,, and that's not good either. I believe there is a lot more horsepower in a lightweight piston, pin and ring package, than many of us here on the Forum, think there is. I've heard numbers as high as 40 Hp, with a good set of lightweight modern pistons, verses the old TRW/Speed-Pro and the KB Hypers.

I do not see any downside in having the heads ported and flowed. Part of the porting should be a competition valve job and that's one way you can pick up a bunch of flow, without ever making the port larger. Do you know if your intake valves are backcut?

Another thing I just noticed, is that you are using 1.7 ratio Chevy rockers, so your cam is not even as "big" as the specs you are giving. The cam was designed assuming a 1.73 ratio rocker arm. So definitely get a bigger cam.

Hope this helps,

YES ... if your total bob weight is heavier than 2300 grams or your piston/pin combination totals more than 800 grams, 7200 is pushing it.
SO, you have to do things which will increase your mid-range power 'cause the top RPM horsepower is hardly gonna help you; (nitrous is a TORQUE maker, it doesn't change top end power much).
Port the heads - get a camshaft with more lift and only 260/270 or so degrees at .050" on a tight seperation - get a new torque convertor with a SLIGHTLY higher stall speed.

It went through the 1/4 at 7200 last time so gear change ain't happening.

Allan,

I know where you are coming from about the gear, I'm turning 7200+ through the 1/4 with a 4.30 gear and 31" tires.

You need the cam in my engine 272/280 @ .050 with .728/.728 lift and 110 lobe seperation. This is the custom ground cam for my 466 however it's now in my 534.

Definitely have the heads ported as Randy, Charlie and the others have mentioned. Then get you a larger crank along with a light flat top piston.

I tried to get tickets for the Bristol Pinks All Out race but I was too late. I'm thinking about getting tickets to the Gainesville race BUT that's a LONG haul :shock: How did you get tickets? Let me know in advance when they go on sale, I've heard that they sell out within 15 minutes :roll:

Allen, one thing you missed telling us was your total on timing.You can pick up a lot of HP,TORQUE,ET by having your timing set right. Lots of racers think they need to run lots of timing that is actually slowing them down. I cut 15 hundreths off my ET going down from 38 to 36 degrees. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck ! Rick

Allen, one thing you missed telling us was your total on timing.You can pick up a lot of HP,TORQUE,ET by having your timing set right. Lots of racers think they need to run lots of timing that is actually slowing them down. I cut 15 hundreths off my ET going down from 38 to 36 degrees. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck ! Rick

Distributor is locked down on 36 ( I use a start/retard)

It went through the 1/4 at 7200 last time so gear change ain't happening.

Allan,

I know where you are coming from about the gear, I'm turning 7200+ through the 1/4 with a 4.30 gear and 31" tires.

You need the cam in my engine 272/280 @ .050 with .728/.728 lift and 110 lobe seperation. This is the custom ground cam for my 466 however it's now in my 534.

Definitely have the heads ported as Randy, Charlie and the others have mentioned. Then get you a larger crank along with a light flat top piston.

I tried to get tickets for the Bristol Pinks All Out race but I was too late. I'm thinking about getting tickets to the Gainesville race BUT that's a LONG haul :shock: How did you get tickets? Let me know in advance when they go on sale, I've heard that they sell out within 15 minutes :roll:

Gainsville tickets are not on sale yet. The bristol tickets sold out in 4 days not 15 min. I was going to buy your cam but didn't have the money to get it without holding you up on your motor and I still need your cam if/when you get ready to change out, tell me and I will see if I have the funds then.

As for crank, I do not have a 429 crank, I have a 460 crank and trw .400 dome pistons. If I have to buy a set of pistons I will just do the A headed motor Charlie put on paper for me and that will require new everything including a different cam.

Here is the thing, I race index racing only and I will do some of the pinks all out stuff if I am able. The only index classes I race is 5.70 and 6.00. Right now all I want is to run the 6.00 on motor and I can spray a little to run the 5.70 (all in the dead heat worst air scenario). I don't need 850 hp to run 6.00 and I don't want to put all the money in a engine right now that will run 5.50's and only have to put lot's of weight to slow it down to run the index. So I am looking for the MOST COST EFFIECENT WAY to run the 6.0 on motor. That will save me about 50-80$ a month in nitrous and be easier on my motor. If I build the motor to run the 5.70 on motor it is going to cost me a crank, rods, piston, rings, heads, or huge port work to mine, bearings, etc, etc. Then I will have to put 300-400#'s in it to slow down for the 6.00.

I am looking for FFW to come out with a 9 second index next year and if so and I can get my motor to run 6.00's n/a then mid 9's on motor should be achievable. I do not look for them to come out with a high 8 or low 9 class yet.

All this help has been great, from what I have read and put together from everyone's opinion is this...

If I port my heads/intake and buy a new cam, the motor should do what I need it to do. My mechanic does port work to heads but he is not Charlie and does not have a flow bench and I don't want him to port them and hurt them more than he helps them. So I guess I will have to see how much Charlie will charge me and get a quote to do the heads and then see if that cam from phantasea comes available or rmcomprandy on here pm'd me this cam.

I went back in my files and three different engines like yours with ported A429 or Edelbrock Victor heads really responded well to this camshaft over others.

CompCams "Special" mechanical roller;
#4149 intake profile/ #4482 Exhaust profile - 108° seperation/ 106° intake centerline.

#4149 = 292°@.020" - 260°@.050" - .421" lobe lift x rocker ratio - lash

#4482 = 302°@.020" - 270°@.050" - .414" lobe lift x rocker ratio - lash

So I think I can do this if I can get the trucking industry to pick up a bit. LOL

Charlie, you know now what I need done to get to my goal, can you pm me what I am looking at to do this?

Thanks again all for your help.

Allan.....Just a thought.....Can you borrow a 4.86 chunk for the 1/8 mi. stuff? :?:

Allan.....Just a thought.....Can you borrow a 4.86 chunk for the 1/8 mi. stuff? :?:

LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: NO

Allan,

I'm not sure if/when I'll change cams but if/when I do, you'll be the first person I call :wink:

If/When they ever return to Bristol for Pinks All-Out I WILL be there one way or another. Keep me in mind if/when you find out before I. If only I had found out a little earlier then I would have had tickets. I went to the website to purchase tickets, added them to my cart and then went to checkout and it said 'tickets no longer available' or something like that.

Later

Allan,

I'm not sure if/when I'll change cams but if/when I do, you'll be the first person I call :wink:

If/When they ever return to Bristol for Pinks All-Out I WILL be there one way or another. Keep me in mind if/when you find out before I. If only I had found out a little earlier then I would have had tickets. I went to the website to purchase tickets, added them to my cart and then went to checkout and it said 'tickets no longer available' or something like that.

Later

Will do....