Experience with a clutch C-6?

The guy I bought my Hilborn setup from has a couple of built C-6's with a clutch instead of a torque converter like a "clutch flite", he's offering me a good price on one if I want it.

Anybody have any experience with these setups? My old Merc will be 95% street driven and has a 557, eventually with a turbo setup. I've heard that the takeoff can be violent even when easing off of a start but the thought of picking my launch RPM and full throttle upshifts kind of trips my trigger. Not to mention the uniqueness of it.

Thanks, Scott

Kind of a pain in the *** for a street car....nowadays, they're probably best for confusing the **** out of ricers & bench racers. :)

Might be kind of neat for a nostalgia race car, though.

As you mentioned, they do shift fairly violently since there's nothing to cushion the change.

those clutch aotumatics are hard on the drivetrain,with no converter to absorb the shock they shift like being hit from the *** end lol!
a friend had camaro with one in it and its spun the tires on every shift until the car caught up with tire speed , just cruisin around!
not for the street.
if for some reason you pass on the deal .hook me up with that thing ,perfect for my dragcar.
john

Ditto the other posts about hard shifting. Maybe the trans could be tuned to make more comfortable shifts, the original '38 and/or 39 Hydra-Matic had a clutch with no coupling until 1940. On the down side of trying to tune a clutch C-6 for street use, with any kind of healthy engine I suspect that too much slippage would be needed for good durability.

Interesting to note, some racers put a converter on a Liberty manual!

i will buy that trans!!!!!!!! i used to run a clutch turbo 400. that is a destructive trans!!! it will kill drivelines but i have been looking for another for awhile, and i did use it on the street only to and from street races but it was brutal ****ing at 2800 rpm it felt like they said rearend by another car.if anyone has info on where to find one i would really like to put one back in my old street racer. its been in storage for along time kinda would be fun to get it out and cruise it around with my daughter. shes 9 and has never seen the camaro its locked up in race car jail...

There may be a Turbo -clutch (thm400) hiding in garage in my neigborhood , I think it's been in hiding for 20 yrs , let me know I'll check . with a slider clutch it was awsome!
Frank

but it was brutal ****ing at 2800 rpm

I bet! :lol:

I'm out of the country for another 3 months yet and don't have the guys # with me, but he's not in a rush to sell 'em so he should still have them. From the sounds of it this won't be the hot ticket for an overpowered small tire street car!

I know if you do a search for "clutch-flite" or "clutch C-6" it will bring up companies still making conversion kits, they are not cheap though! I downloaded a parts list from one of them about a year and a half ago.

Thanks for the input, Scott

I've never tried a Clutch C6. Sounds like fun, though.

You might contact Winters Performance for more info. I found this in their "Sidewinder" catalog. Go to page 37.

http://www.wintersperformance.com/catalogs/SideWinder/index.htm

paulie

Hi new here, I have been snooping trying to find info on the Clutch C-6 kit and others like it like the clutch flite and hydro clutch / turbo clutch. I thought some of you would get a kick out of seeing a FORD one. I think these pics are the only ones you will find for the C-6 on the net at this point.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/260730/thread/1168507752/clutch+C-6++info...+poor+mans+lenco...


http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6765/clutchc6015cp4.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9099/clutchc6017cj9.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6905/clutchc6014ox9.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5067/clutchc6010qx5.jpg

Hi Kaz, just read the tread on the other forum. like the part the guy that posted the rear band isn't built to take it. one more of the don't know **** but knows everything kind of guy. C6 don't have a rear band, got a clutch pack instead

They tried this in the 60's and not much luck so it was abandon.... if it were so good why don't they do this instead of a good converter???? :roll:



Randy

Maybe, 'cause...back in the day, there weren't any good converters. :roll:

I have a question, not too far off-topic, I hope.
There are those who can make a Lenco "streetable", with a clutch.
Is this done by adjusting the clamping pressure in the individual clutch packs
in each gear section ?

If you're using manual levers, to shift it, you can massage the cam surface of the lever to soften the shift. If you're using AIR to shift, you can drop the pressure UNLESS it results in slippage or, put a restrictor in the apply air line.

Thanks Chuck. Want a Lenco, can't afford it yet.

They tried this in the 60's and not much luck so it was abandon.... if it were so good why don't they do this instead of a good converter???? :roll:



Randy

they worked great but the invention of the lenco killed this trans then shortly after high stalls were available

Youre waisting time and money. Just an opinion of a trans builder. Save youre money and buy a GOOD converter. :cry:

Wow... some great responses so far, but I would like to... take/get... advise/storys from people who Actually ran these things lol, from what I have been able to find out some of the old gassers that ran these trannys had NO! problems going FAST with them, the info I have picked up mostly so far is that they seemed to be unreliable at times on the drag strip which is the biggest complaint I have read. I understand the lenco was based off of this auto clutch concept so how bad could it really be lol, if these auto clutches were no good... would it not be fair to say the lencos are also based off the same crappy concept lol... I wonder why all the auto clutches had the nick name of... poor man's lenco... lol. With todays upgrades for the C6 which were not available back then I feel this old design could be a real kick *** fun tranny today.

someone please correct me if I am wrong, I was told by an old timer a while back that Skip Hess tryed this same FE type B&M clutch C6 I have behind his Revell SOHC Gasser Mustang in the late 60's running mid 7's with it.

http://gassermadness.com/wagner/revell/REVELLKI.T9-1600.jpg

http://gassermadness.com/wagner/revell/index.html

the one i had worked great, but the parts supply dried up and there was nothing in the 80s except n.o.s. items or a old trans from a swap meet etc. the drive fingers were the weak link back then. i talked to winters about a year ago and they were working on making the 400 kit available but it wasnt ready yet even if the catalogue list it. they said it wasnt likely they would do a c6 unless there was alot of people asking for it

With todays converter technology there is no need for this application, unless you just want one or are really old old school lol.

Hi jughead, did you run a chev clutch turbo or the ford clutch?. Winters now has parts for the turbo clutches, there is another company making them too...

http://www.extremeautomatics.com/transmissions/clutchturbo400.html

I dont like big stall converters... :D so for me there is a need for this application lol :D

Charlie at Winters told me the clutch C6 parts will be made next but if they don't, hey these part don't look to hard to re-make here localy, maybe even with newer/better Materials, I think I could get a few clutch C-6 kits made here fairly easly.

i ran the turbo 400 version. in my opinon this type of trans is way more fun to drive than an auto plus my car was always faster with this trans over an automatic. these would still be faster than an automatic even with a high quality stall its just that there isnt many lower level racers that run double dics clutches and can tune them

in the winters catalogue if you go to page 35 part number 1 ,that was the week link maybe they redesigned it now

Thanks Jug, your info is very helpfull. Those drive spiders are all the same from all 3 kits and I believe Winters has those in stock now. Could you tell me exactly what was the problem with them?, did they bend, break?, that part to me just looks like its stamped out of steel plate and the ends folded over.



here is the clutch C-6 page on Winters site,... click on "prev page" to see the clutch flite and clutch hydro kits part #'s.
http://www.wintersperformance.com/catalogs/SideWinder/33.htm

http://www.wintersperformance.com/catalogs/SideWinder/images/_33c-6%20clutch%20kit.JPG

cool a on off switch for a automatic :lol:

Here are some more Clutch C6 pics from the other site. 2slow was nice enough to find and sell me this kit. Thanks again 2slow. I will be rebuilding this tranny with the best parts that I can get and with the new low 272 gear set it should be a blast of the line.


http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7598/clutchc6025wc0.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2811/clutchc6026yf1.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2116/clutchc6027er1.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6934/clutchc6029gq0.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6828/clutchc6018ns6.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6905/clutchc6008oh1.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/5657/clutchc6007xu3.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6475/clutchc6001bc7.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8676/clutchc6004tj6.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3189/clutchc6016mn3.jpg

ok! just how do ya cut the bellhouseing??

Hi, I marked the inside of the bell with a 3" small hand grinder, I used approx a small 1/8" to 1/4" spacer on the center bolt of grinder and held it against the outer edge of the pump to make an even mark and cut a slot in one spot. Then I used a reciprocating saw to cut it off and a big hand grinder on the cut face to straighten/finish it out nice.

The plan/thought is to use a hydraulic foot clutch kit with this deal, I don't see any need for other types of linkages. I have a B+M mega shifter that should be good for both converter and the clutch tranny. The clutch C6 is about an inch longer with the lakewood clutch shield on so just one slotted tranny mount should do the trick for switching if needed, they will both use the same center tranny shield and cable shifter linkage. I need to find/buy a good strong 11" long style pressure plate and play around with diffrent disks to see what will work best for me for street/strip, I am thinking to use a lightend steel flywheel but maybe possibly alumium also.

Anyone know will a dual disk work in/with this deal?

Buddy of mine is running a clutch-flited powerglide in his dart circle track car. Nice having direct drive and all that without having to use a clutch to shift but getting the car on the trailer can be a real challenger. There is no slipping the "clutch" cause there isn't a clutch to slip. As I'm sure you know. You can always tell where the car was moved from, there's these little 15" rubber patches on the ground. I would not recommend it for the street. Royal pain in the a$$.

So in what way is it a pain in the aaa???, I knew a guy here that ran a fricken clutch flite in a fricken BB dodge tow truck lol for almost a year before he swaped it out. This was because he got tired of dealing with the hard shifting.

BTW, I bought a B&M clutch flite too...

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/153/im004128sk5.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/5403/im004127rl7.jpg

Well I have never tried this setup but I know someone that did. Ill find out more about it from him. I think they were prone to leaks.

It is a pain because there is no slippage involved in letting the "clutch" pedal out. It's engaged or it isn't. I suppose you could put some sort of variable valve on there that would apply the pressure slowly but I think that would negate the whole purpose of having that sort of setup. I say go for it. Buy it and then you can tell all of us what a pain it is.
Looking back at your prior messages, I think we're talking about two different setups. The setup I'm talking about has no clutch to speak of. It simply has a direct drive with the clutch pedal attached to a hydraulic valve that bypasses the line pressure so the transmission won't operate. When the clutch pedal is let out, full line pressure. ie, tires squealing and/or engine dying. Not even a flywheel. Revs quick. Still a huge pain.

moparman are talking about the oval track PG ? first ones we used back in the 70s from Winter used a ball valve w/ a lever on the band servo for push starts

line pressure lost, something was going wrong at the pressure plate and 3 finger drive. pump turns at engine rpm like tq/conv-- all the time

Hi Kaz, just read the tread on the other forum. like the part the guy that posted the rear band isn't built to take it. one more of the don't know **** but knows everything kind of guy. C6 don't have a rear band, got a clutch pack instead

Well asshole if you read the entire content rather than letting the **** run out of your mouth I said if he was running a 727 on the street it was hard on the band.
In case your brain is full of **** a 727 is in Chrysler products.

stuata it was my finger that did it, your not to smart, can you see me holding it up for you

OH... ****, :D let me get my hat... :)

you two must be old school racers :wink:

those clutch aotumatics are hard on the drivetrain,with no converter to absorb the shock they shift like being hit from the *** end lol!
a friend had camaro with one in it and its spun the tires on every shift until the car caught up with tire speed , just cruisin around!
not for the street.
if for some reason you pass on the deal .hook me up with that thing ,perfect for my dragcar.
johnHow does that compare to my modified C4 with reverse pattern full manual VB? It shifts real hard even babying the gas pedal - spins the tires, too.

One other thing I found interesting is guys saying you can also use a hydraulic throwout bearing instead of a foot pedal. I have read you could also tie in a line lock with this deal also?.

Here is a link I found for a guy doing just that to a clutchflite. He does have a hydraulic operated clutch fork on the can which is what I wanted to do, should make install much easyer.

http://www.anderssonracing.com/hre.htm

Kas, old school,yes from the old days and know how to step up to modern times. went back and reread his post, he edit twice, couldnt get it the first time or second. took him three times, maybe like how many times it took him to get a tranny job out the door before it was taken to a shop that could repair it right. 3 times means he wasn't right the first time..

Kas, old school,yes from the old days and know how to step up to modern times. went back and reread his post, he edit twice, couldnt get it the first time or second. took him three times, maybe like how many times it took him to get a tranny job out the door before it was taken to a shop that could repair it right. 3 times means he wasn't right the first time..
I admitted to editing the comment so even a dork like you could understand it.
If you read Kazs comments you can plainly see he mentioned clutchflite.
That's what my answer was based on.
I'm so sorry it confused your mind.

You two ornery old farts remind me of Force and Hoffman lol :D... sounds like you guys need a match race to settle this lol :wink:

Your both of great help...

So does anyone here have the an old issue of the Petersens Complete Ford Book?, I was told they got a build up article on the Clutch C-6 in it.

I tryed to buy this one off of egay but the guy would not ship to canada... not even with a 50buck offer for the one mag lol.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120300536752&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us#ebayphotohostin g

http://i18.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/09/2a/5876_1.JPG

Good luck I have seen many go to the trash cuz couldn't get them worked out have fun


Randy

moparman are talking about the oval track PG ? first ones we used back in the 70s from Winter used a ball valve w/ a lever on the band servo for push starts

2slow, that must be what he has. I think I'm getting pretty confused. The pedal is attached to a valve that allows line pressure to flow with the pedal out, thus engaging the transmission. There's no slipping this thing to make it ease off the line. It's cool, but really difficult to get moved around in a tight area or onto a trailer.

http://www.performancetrends.com/drag_race_centrifugal_slider_clutch.htm

those clutch aotumatics are hard on the drivetrain,with no converter to absorb the shock they shift like being hit from the *** end lol!
a friend had camaro with one in it and its spun the tires on every shift until the car caught up with tire speed , just cruisin around!
not for the street.
if for some reason you pass on the deal .hook me up with that thing ,perfect for my dragcar.
johnHow does that compare to my modified C4 with reverse pattern full manual VB? It shifts real hard even babying the gas pedal - spins the tires, too.

any other auto can not compare, way to much lost in the torque converter, thats the whole reason for replacing it

Unless i missed it (i'll probally get my head chopped off for it) but did somebody address the torque multiplication of the converter?
i think thats another reason they are not popular , its like running a 3 speed manual and thats not enough gears to really make it run.
have fun and put a real stick in it and be done with it. shift it smooth or bang the hang out of it the choice is your.

some FE boys going to be a little upset FE C6s not so easy to find

converters are for girls... :wink:

Unless i missed it (i'll probally get my head chopped off for it) but did somebody address the torque multiplication of the converter?
i think thats another reason they are not popular , its like running a 3 speed manual and thats not enough gears to really make it run.
have fun and put a real stick in it and be done with it. shift it smooth or bang the hang out of it the choice is your.

i had mine behind a sbc for a little while when the bbc was out for repairs,i noticed that it needed a heavy flywheel but that was a mild sbc it was pump gas with a 600 lift soild roller and ported iron heads ,lanching at 5,000 rpm it would wheelie about 2 ft off the ground then fall flat a little lack off hp and as you said torque multiplication so i hooked up a 2 step on a clutch switch that would engage when clutch was on the floor,i put a 7,000 rpm switch on the low side and an 8,000 on the high. when clutch was depressed i mated the throttle 7,000 rpm and carb was then wide open and side stepped clutch it would put it on the bumper and run the 60 foot 1.33 was the best with the back tires and would only run mid tens.. with a 800 hp bbc and real sticky track first time out launched it at 5,000 rpm and twisted the pinion off a dana 60 :shock:

converters are for girls... :wink: Hey I like letting the clutch fly but why not just go with a good manual trans? I just think buy the time you sort it out is it worth it? Kinda like making a square peg fit a round hole. All that work and its still a 3 speed thats going to rob more power than a manual. :roll:

Knock it off man with them negative waves! Why don't you dig how beautiful a clutch C6 is...

http://www.homevideos.com/freezeframes2/kellysheros94.jpeg

LOL! I am amazed by the negative comments by people who have never used/run one of these, powerglides are two speeds are they not?, there have been racecars using direct drive have there not?, the lenco has no torque multiplication, does it not?, a 4spd has no torque multiplication does int not?, the Revell mustang ran mid 7's with the B&M C6 clutch has it not?, looks to me like theres lots of diffrent ways to go fast lol.

With the low gear set avalible now I want to use, I believe this Clutch C-6 will have a 2.72 first, 1.54 second, 1.1 third, that sounds like good tranny gearing to me lol. I don't give a crap about the bull**** torque multiplication from a girly converter lol, some people way over rate it... it is way over rated IMO lol.

Dont know about the cluch C6, but I shore did like that move

Knock it off man with them negative waves! Why don't you dig how beautiful a clutch C6 is...

http://www.homevideos.com/freezeframes2/kellysheros94.jpeg

LOL! I am amazed by the negative comments by people who have never used/run one of these, powerglides are two speeds are they not?, there have been racecars using direct drive have there not?, the lenco has no torque multiplication, does it not?, a 4spd has no torque multiplication does int not?, the Revell mustang ran mid 7's with the B&M C6 clutch has it not?, looks to me like theres lots of diffrent ways to go fast lol.

With the low gear set avalible now I want to use, I believe this Clutch C-6 will have a 2.72 first, 1.54 second, 1.1 third, that sounds like good tranny gearing to me lol. I don't give a crap about the bull**** torque multiplication from a girly converter lol, some people way over rate it... it is way over rated IMO lol.



Hey DON'T come on here and say we never tried them? Been there done that...I have tried one and it DIDN'T WORK, I wasted 6 months trying with the trans people, so I **** canned it and went to a DNE4+1, I know lots of guy's that tried couple had a Turbo 400, another had a C-6, and all came with the same ending result.....


If I wanted to go that route it would be DNE or Richmond or a Liberty, or maybe a Lenco. But it wouldn't be some Brain Fart that I have never seen work yet!


Randy

Hey DON'T come on here and say we never tried them? Been there done that...I have tried one and it DIDN'T WORK, I wasted 6 months trying with the trans people, so I **** canned it and went to a DNE4+1, I know lots of guy's that tried couple had a Turbo 400, another had a C-6, and all came with the same ending result.....


If I wanted to go that route it would be DNE or Richmond or a Liberty, or maybe a Lenco. But it wouldn't be some Brain Fart that I have never seen work yet!


Randy

Awesome!, you never said you used one in your other posts so did you try the ford or chev one?, you didint say. wondering how long ago? could you fill me in on the spider and what happens to it as some say its the weak link in the setup?. Also did you have any issues with down shifting it from say drive to 2 or 1 while it was moving?. Did you use a low gear set in yours?, I have heard that the factory gear is to high for some engines depending on power output. did you use a manual vb, is it nessasary to use a reverse vb?, did you use a steel or alumium flywheel on yours?, I was told this makes a big diffrence on some engines. I got a few more questions but I dont want to overload you all at once. :D

far as the spider, think it was more of a problem for those useing a Borg&Beck pressure plate. Long p/p has the narrow fingers B/B has the wide, from as this tranny talk, to make everyone happy, going to have ONLY ONE trans thats the ridght one to use. so what will it be? 1st vote here is for a 10 speed Road Ranger. could always leave it to the owner for their preference. should that be done for cubes and heads also?

Kaz ,I know were there is a th400 version here in Brooks
Frank

Kaz when I tried it I kept bending the pump dogs on the Trans broke one but, also kept having small leaks, in the bell area. (They call it a Pour mans Lenco) I also probably could have used a lighter Flywheel it might have helped but when you dump the clutch @ 8500 and take it up from there, might not be to good on it also. The gear shift was somewhat firm, just back then and still have flair up between shifts on some trans. Now with one aof Franks Manual shift valve bodies it might just work. On down shifting felt like it was going to come out of the car, from the sudden gear change, did that once and never again...The one I used was a clutch Turbo 400. went to the scrap metal dealer years ago...


Try if you have to hope you have better luck than we did...


Randy

Some interesting info, so now I have seen/heard a few times now about the chev version leaking, I wonder if there is a design issue with the chev one?. 2slow I bet your right about the pressure plates, I wonder if that could also be any cause of leakage?. The clutch C6 kit spider I got was in good condition, also so was the the one with the clutch flite tranny I got. I do however remember the turbo clutch I got years back which I was told came out of Rick DiStefanos? old chevelle looked like the spider was slightly twisted... interesting, I sold that tranny to a local guy for his dirt dragster, he said it worked excellent in his application and was very happy with it. My best friends older brother Jim Marcellous? use to run a turbo clutch in his 60's s/g bb vette, just awesome! the way that car launched!, prostock style lol. I do remember something about that tranny weeping oil too. So 2slow from your recollection, do you remember any simular oil weeping issues with the ford versions?, also forgot to ask you if there were any issues with down shifting the ford version clutch C6 while it was moving? . One other thing I heard is that the the clutch flite version was more popular to use back then?, I am just wondering if this was true in anyway if it had anything to do with the gearing ratios at that time?, did the mopar 727's have low gear sets/ratios back then from the others?, maybe it was a better tranny?. Hi Frank I might just pm/call you about that unit for the hell of it. I got a guy that emailed me that said hes got the petersens clutch C6 build up artical and he will scan and send it to me. I will put it on line here when he does. I think it would be fun to do a bit of r&d on these things but I am realy ONLY interested in the Ford clutch C6 and making it work better if needed. I realy have not heard/seen anything yet Specifically complaint wise about the Ford tranny clutch C6. I am intreaged with this Ford version clutch... Well gotta go for now, The Big Lebowski special edition is out today and I got to go now and get it because I am living the big lebowski!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqtgfjkB6Pg

Kaz down shifting it will not be advised, like I say mine was violent when I tried it one time :shock: Felt like the whole drive line was going to come out of the car. gave me an uneasy feeling thought it was going to tear something up for sure :cry: The Valve bodies are much better now for sure, I think Frank has done extensive work on the Ford units to improve them.
I have seen many units over the years piled in corners of Garages. Automatic trannys have come along way in the last 10 years, with some of the new tech and the older Clutch trans it might just work... I am just not sold on them, I went to a Glide for consistance...


Good luck
Randy

i would only down shift at a light sitting still that was about the only draw back i remember from street driving one, i totally forgot about that issue. i never had any leaks and i remember the 727 was the worst of all for failures its tail shaft was to long,it would twist it

So in the last few days I have learned some real interesting things about these kits and the diffrences in the Ford, Mopar and Chev trannys and they are not all created equal. The turbo 400 definatly has some issues with doing this conversion because of its case and pump over the others. Being that there are probably more chev turbo clutch kits than others out there, just because of the numbers which makes sence, is probably why I think there are more complaints about the turbo clutch units.

Anyway Here is the Winters Clutch C-6 artical... enjoy!

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/92/clutch001hn2.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3443/clutch002uy3.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/254/clutch003cc1.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5462/clutch004id8.jpg

HolyCrap!?... thought I would check this thread and was surprised at the amount of veiws, I think one or two people just might be interested in this old school Clutch C-6 stuff lol.

Here are a few more odd pics I got for the curious. I did a quick test fit a while back to see how the drive dog/spider lined up with a long style pp, the pic is not that good because it's through the clutch fork hole but you should get the idea of how the pump is driven (where the pp finger sits in relation to the drive spider/dog).

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5127/im004448bg1.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4689/im004447jb2.jpg

Also for the heck of it, long ago when I had got the gm B&M turbo clutch / clutch hydro version I had to make a spacer/centering ring for my ford scatter shield.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/364/im004461if7.jpg

I could use the two factory upper holes for shield mounting but had to drill two new lower ones in the shield for the gm version. Knowing more now about these kits now, I am kind of glad I sold the GM clutch tranny off, I was told some of the gm cases are not that good compared to the ford and mopar ones?.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9650/im004463ca3.jpg

I also got another email about another clutch C-6 tech artical in the 1968 jul issue of Custom Rodder, I will post it here when I get it.