Hat injection versus dual terminators for injected alcohol?? [Archive] - 460 Ford Forum

: Hat injection versus dual terminators for injected alcohol??


XR7
03-17-2008, 05:53 PM
I have a buddy who is considering switching to alcohol and he was curious which system would work best. This would be on a 526 CI aluminum FE engine in a 2100# tube chassis car with a Lenco that runs in the high 8's.

He has a sheetmetal tunnel ram with dual dominators on gas currently. He fights overheating problems and ET consistancy (bracket racing) for changing weather conditions at a high altitude track. Alcohol injection should help with both of these conditions correct? Also do you think he will gain HP or lose some???

I hear a lot about Ron's injection and how consistant it is, what about the hat injector.... how do these compare as far as consistancy and ease of tuning? On a tunnelram it would seem a easy conversion to a hat injector like a bird catcher with an adapter plate. Running two toilets or terminators would also work but be more expensive than a hat system it appears.

He knows about changing the fuel system and front mount cell etc.

Any real world comparisons or advice from those running alcohol. Pro's and cons, and/or recomedations, of each system etc. If anyone wants to talk him out of this, now is the time so pipe up please....

Thanks!

blastertech70
03-17-2008, 07:22 PM
XR7 - We run an Alcohol Enderle Bird injection/ TFS tunnel ram on a 514ci A-460 headed motor in a "mud racer"

Some of the issues you have already seem to have some understanding. As far as cost involved I think the dual terminators would def be the more expensive route to go. I dont think the mounting would be any more difficult. Ronís has a great customer service dept and everyone I know that runs one has had good things to say.

As far as Enderle Hat I personally prefer the hat and would rather mess with one injector/ linkage for simplicity. Most that have had both claim the Hat to have a slight edge on performance. The down side is Enderle has a "terrible" customer service dept. But knowledge between racers with Enderle in incredable and helpful also. Either unit is a learning curve regardless of which one you go with.

Gas vs Alcohol is really opinionated :P Personally I think the greatest noticeable deference between carburetion and injection is the "throttle response" I really donít find that there is a huge deff in horsepower with Alcohol vs Gasoline if there is it isn't the giant percentage that some like to claim. I think the most thing that you will notice is that Alcohol carries a flatter curve with better torq than gas. Some tuners claim that Gas will produce better "peak" horsepower than alcohol.

If heat is a problem now, it won't be on alcohol and you may even fight the problem the other way by keeping oil heaters or blanket heater on your system. You can set barrel valves to cool and not efect performance with some tuning knowledge. Some tuners say that it is better to have "wet heads" and a dry block to stabilize head/chamber temperatures. Personally as mud racers were only on for 2-3 seconds and we don't find that to be an issue. We run extremely low barrel valve percentages and smaller nozzles that the drag racers could never survive at.

As far as fuel cell mounting the preferred/suggested method is to mount your fuel cell above the pump and to limit line filters that are restrictive.

Tuning - It is way more consistant than gasoline, it carries more oxy so it is effected less than gas to temperature/weather changes. The most you will change in your area is a couple pill size from weather changes between the seasons.

Pro's
Alcohol is generally less expensive to buy and even with alcohol usage being more than gasoline it still comes out cheaper to use than the "Myth" that alcohol burns twice than gas so there is no savings. Just not true. I already mentioned that it runs cooler and there is increased throttle response and delivers more torq. It can be a weight saving minus the use of cooling systems. And ore consistant and easyer to tune.

Con's - Alcohol requires a lot of fuel system maintenance, keeping the system clean because generally the filters are less restrictive and Alcohol is very corrosive and needs to be flushed after every day/night of racing. Never let the fuel system set wet with alcohol. Nozzles, jets and line should be cleaned and inspected to insure they are not plugged every race weekend.

The alcohol drys the ceramic seals in the pump so you need to "wet" the pump and system and never turn the pump dry you also need to run a "top lube" in the alcohol if it isn't already added in it when you purchase it.

Oil changes need to be done every race weekend the dilution and contamination is a factor. I don't know that alcohol requires more bearing maintenance but I know in our application it has made us check bearing more consistently then we normally would with gas.

Alcohol isn't the fuel for lazy racers if you want to come home and leave the car in the trailer until next race stay with gasoline it is safer

good luck
Jeff

ky mustang
03-17-2008, 07:55 PM
Blastertech why are you having oil dilution problems ?

blastertech70
03-17-2008, 08:54 PM
Blastertech why are you having oil dilution problems ?

I didn't state I had any oil dilution problems, some applications do. We simply don't have the idle time drag racers do. Some drag racers run high barrell valve percentages for cooling.

Alcohol in injected motors are under 100-150 psi and twice the ammount of alcohol is passeng than a normal gas motor. Pretty typical on an injected alcohol motor to change oil every weekend. The other factor is alcohol asorbs water, draing oil insures that it isnt contaminated with moisture.

Most of injected alcohol guys will run a parafin based oil to help with these conditions Brad Penn is reproducing the old Kendal Green and that is a real popular oil for injected applications

Most big injected blower motors will drop every 4 runs and the Nitro injected drop every pass.

ky mustang
03-17-2008, 09:49 PM
So are you saying those that do have dilutions problems are tuned to run cool and not fast :lol: .

blastertech70
03-17-2008, 10:33 PM
So are you saying those that do have dilutions problems are tuned to run cool and not fast

Good Question :

Yes and no, The injector system works on a barrell valve and a percentage of the barrel valve feeds the idle cir. While you are at idle you can control the ammount of fuel by the by a percentage of the barrell valve. The higher the percentage the more fuel to cool the motor.

At a idle if you want to get heat in the motor you crack the fuel shut-off to lean the system and the idle will increase and the motor temp will rise. If your on the return road and want to coll the motor you idle slowly and the motor will decrease in temp.

Once the hat ( butterflies) are open apox 30 percent the barrell valve is wide open and is and the fuel is regulated by the main by-pass with a "pill" the bigger the pill the more returns to the cell and the system becomes leaner. With a smaller the pill less fuel is returned and the system becomes phatter.

During the run or the topend a "hy-speed" by-pass poppet ( spring loaded) can be installed for additional pill to lean the fuel curve further if needed. the spring is set to a certain system pressure and it opens to return fuel.

BBBob_M
03-17-2008, 10:43 PM
XR7 sorry to change subject (sort of), but I'd love to see pics of this moster FE powered ride. I'm an old FE fan.

.

ky mustang
03-17-2008, 11:37 PM
I run an alky carb and I cool mine with a fan , water pump , and radiator :lol: I am changing oil on about 110 passes.

One thing I have noticed since switching to the tfs street heads is they build a little more water temp than the doves and my oil is diluted less.

Now the big question is it because the better combustion chambers are burning more of the alky and its not getting in the oil pan . That makes me wonder if it would in fact run better on race fuel.

A buddy of mine tunes 2 different cars , one with a hat and one with a terminator. They are using an electronic hsb. I think thats kinda neet because they can vary the rpm of when it kicks in. I think it was worth 50 hp on the dyno / vs not using it and tuning alone.

You mentioned better throttle responce being better. A problem they got into was when running a slower car theirs would load up when on the 2 step.
He ended up using two 2 steps and turning them on at different amounts of time with one of the high end delay boxes. It "stutters" on one 2 step at a lower rpm for preset .xxx amount of time and then instantly switches to the launch rpm just before the transbrake releases.

blastertech70
03-18-2008, 12:16 AM
One thing I have noticed since switching to the tfs street heads is they build a little more water temp than the doves and my oil is diluted less.

The chamber temps could be one account, and the other being you have more water temp could be that the oil temp is higher also. A lot of injected alcohol guys use an oil temp gauge in there pan to help tune specialy when they have a filled block. Keeping the oil temp up will help with the dilution also.

I ran an Alcohol carb on all my drag cars,I really can't remember if I picked up when switching to alcohol, been to long ago. :? I just don't remember beening noticably faster on alcohol.

What kind of intake duration are you using. Sometimes an alcohol motor will like a little more for increased cylinder temps. These may be why your thinking gas would work better..if true a good observation by you. Mr. Johansen ( Herbert cams) built our alcohol injected cam and was one of the thing he explained when I questioned it.

Yea there is some different monitoring devices out there for Hy-speeds by-passes. I have a manual adjustable hy-speed from a spint car plumbed in but really haven't used it. Don't know if I will need to on 160' track

Yea.. converter bog is sometimes a problem and there are several methods to trim the fuel, I have never had to deal with them problems. We flash the converter rather than using a brake because we run single lane times at most events and reaction time isn't in the equasion.

ky mustang
03-18-2008, 12:42 AM
272* AT .050.

blastertech70
03-18-2008, 12:57 AM
were at 290 on our injected alcohol, Just for curiosity you might call aroud and see what kind of opinions you get. Was you cam originally built as a gas cam ??

ky mustang
03-18-2008, 04:16 AM
I don't remember if gas was specified or not. I am not going to change cams though its a bracket racer and its consisent enough to suit me.

Do you think a carb on alky will stay in tune better than injection through out different good air bad air days. My buddie is always changing pills ,etc every time we go. I never touched my carb all year after I got it set and ran just as consisent as he did.

blastertech70
03-18-2008, 06:25 AM
Do you think a carb on alky will stay in tune better than injection through out different good air bad air days.

I haven't any facts to back that up but the AFR are both the same using alcohol I don't know that the difference in delivery would effect the tune.

alcohol AFR is 6 to 1 and gasoline is somwhere around twice that ratio thats the reason that temp/weather effect alcohol less. t takes a considerable weather change to effect alcohol

I just pushed some numbers in my "tune -up spread sheet"

75 degrees 45 hum = 111 pill and 2.804 gpm (alcohol)

85 degrees 60 hum = 113 pll and 2.738 gpm (alcohol)

A enderle style pill is incremented in .001 so with a ten degree weather change and 15 % Realitive humidity change the fuel consumption changed .066 gpm and the pill changed .002

Keep in mind that most tuners just carry pill changes in increments of five rather than every pill change to the thousanths. Most say that they don't see a defference. Most will go for a degree of timing rather than to lean a pill .003

ky mustang
03-18-2008, 06:16 PM
The difference I see is the injection does what you "tell it to" and the carb does what is "asked" of it.

blastertech70
03-18-2008, 07:14 PM
Exactly, Thats a good way to look at it. With mechanical fuel injection you literally " Build" your own fuel curve to meet your requirements. It takes a bit of hard learning, I consider myself to be an intermediate tuner. There is a lot of I havenít had the opportunity to be learned on yet.

WFO
03-19-2008, 03:14 AM
As far as the original question of Hat type or throttle body injection, the air doesn't really care how it gets in there. How the rest of the injection system is setup is probly more important.

XR7
03-19-2008, 07:22 PM
:D Thanks for all the responses and discussion so far. Keep em coming!

Which system would be easier to tune for a rookie to alcohol injection?

I'll try to post a pic of the car and engine in question...



http://www.network54.com/Realm/coug/RandyFE78stang.jpg

richter69
03-19-2008, 07:26 PM
I think the Ron's stuff is a bit easier to tune, never messed with the hat injection but I hear once its dialed in it works damn good. Hats look cooler too. 8)

XR7
03-19-2008, 07:31 PM
Jon, did you switch from a toilet back to a dominator on gas? If so why? I would love to pick your brain some time about your coil over conversion on the front of your 69.

32 Altered
03-19-2008, 07:32 PM
Jon, did you switch from a toilet back to a dominator on gas? If so why? I would love to pick your brain some time about your coil over conversion on the front of your 69.

Coil over conversion?

Spill it... I'm curious too!

richter69
03-19-2008, 07:37 PM
Yes I did, some Kentucky boys twisted my arm lol.

The game plan was too spray a little, the gas was just easier. It seems now I dont need the extra torque from the alky either. Not sure this would run much better anyway on the spirits.

Front end wasnt so bad, just a lot of figurin', I had a good buddy to call too when I had questions, he's built a few fast cars to say the least.

Wasn't a conversion so to speak, I had to make some stuff fit so i did.

richter69
03-19-2008, 07:54 PM
I started a thread in the general section on the front end.

blastertech70
03-19-2008, 08:17 PM
Ron makes a nice unit / has good customer service and they are simple enough. And there consistant pretty much a bolt on deal no fuss no muss. Problem is, you don't learn nothing.

Bottom line ..If you don't want to be a "sissy boy" go with the Hat injection take the time and learn how to tune and build your fuel curve. You will be a better racer in the end.I would just rather learn and not take the short cut. JMO

588 Bantam
03-19-2008, 08:39 PM
We have a dual Terminator setup. Guess that makes us sissies :roll: We bought it from James Monroe at KillerRons. We have not made a single change to it yet we bolted it on and ran it. This year we'll get it sorted out. But it runs great out of the box. So far , alky has been an easy switch. There is for sure more maintenance, but we needed to go alky for the cooling. Our rad is tiny and lays flat at the nose so alky's good, you can control motor temp very nicely. We also went with the primer plus which works great except for the crappy fuel shutoff solenoid that died in short order. We replaced it with a manual shutoff valve. You only use it for the first start of the day and at the end of the day to dry up the motor. It was a more expensive setup than the Enderle. A friend runs a hat and it runs fine too, but for some reason he has a lot more trouble starting his car than we do cold or warm.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j317/588Bantam/DSCN1896-1.jpg

richter69
03-19-2008, 08:42 PM
James Monroe is the man to get your Ron's stuff from, his tune up will be damn near deadon out of the box with little or no changes needed. He has excellent customer service as well, I called him on Sunday to answer a question when I was at the track tunning.

ky mustang
03-19-2008, 08:44 PM
How are they different they both squirt fuel whether there is intake signal to do so or not. In my opinion the only difference would be the hat is on a tunnel ram and the ron's units are usually on a single carb manifold. That should make the hat easier to tune.

richter69
03-19-2008, 08:50 PM
Its more to do with the different brands set up, pump size, nozzel, pill, barrel valve etc.

Carbs much easier............... :lol:

TopSportsman916
03-19-2008, 09:01 PM
Ron makes a nice unit / has good customer service and they are simple enough. And there consistant pretty much a bolt on deal no fuss no muss. Problem is, you don't learn nothing.

Bottom line ..If you don't want to be a "sissy boy" go with the Hat injection take the time and learn how to tune and build your fuel curve. You will be a better racer in the end.I would just rather learn and not take the short cut. JMO

How does running Ron's Terminators instead of Hat injection make you a sissy & not have to learn anything? Please explain.

I think both systems have learning curves. Blaster do you think Ron comes out & tunes it for me?? :lol: Have I learned some by asking questions ? Sure.. James Monroe helped me early on with some initial advice. Carroll Carter told me some things to look for. Now Carroll has never worked with the Ron's set up. Anyway Randy, I don't change my set up constantly. My car runs consistant. I will review the data afterward & try diffent set ups to fine tune my EGT's/fuel pressure for the next race. I do agree with Blaster on the throttle response. It's awesome. I run just enough % of leak by on the barrell valve so I don't have a lean stumble. I have mine set at 32% & the throttle respnse is great. It also helps save alky & wasting dumping it in the pan. I do use my fuel shut off cable whenever idling,warming up, or returning to the pits. My oil looks fine but I have been changing it after every race. I also do it to keep moisture out. I also drain my fuel cell after every race & clean the fuel filter just to be safe. Blaster is right that it definitely is more maintenance intensive. But I love how I don't have to worry about overheating & it is super consistant.I'm also planning on a high speed by pass with the hemi motor.

Sorry if this incoherent but it's past my bed time. I guess I am just one of those Ron's fuel injection "sissies". :wink: :lol:

ky mustang
03-19-2008, 09:05 PM
Its more to do with the different brands set up, pump size, nozzel, pill, barrel valve etc.

Carbs much easier............... :lol:

Carb's get better alky mileage for some reason also :lol:

richter69
03-19-2008, 09:06 PM
Yep, and more so when you use a lean out.

blastertech70
03-19-2008, 09:06 PM
I have tuned both systems, the Ron's system are a really nice set-up. They have an electronis hy-speed and converter helper to0. Basically with a Ron's system all the "work" is done for you and it is real smplified for the racers who want/need that.

The hat system IMO are still "old School" you can pay an injection company to "flow test/build" a fuel curve for you or you can learn to tune and build a fuel system yourself. I think the Hat injection have some small performance gains over the Ron's IMO. Most builders I know say the Hat generally wins out on the Dyno.

ky mustang
03-19-2008, 09:14 PM
Oh Chris you just like that terminator better because its that fancy blue color :lol: I guess we can start calling you " Fancy sissy Chris" now :mrgreen:

blastertech70
03-19-2008, 09:28 PM
Chris -

No offense with the "sisses" thats just track talk between the Ron's guys and the Enderle's guys I can't beleive you haven't heard that crap before ? :lol: Honestly..just good fun I knew I would get a rise from someone LMAO

Sorry, I do think there is more learning curve in the Enderle injection over the Ron's injections. I thinks Ron's customer service and some of the horns/whistles he has done with his system has simplified the system.I think he gives his customers a much more positive tuned product without a doubt.

Enderle customer service simpily sucks, it's a "crap shoot" and the only way to get a properly tuned system is to buy a Enderle system from a Fuel injection company that deals their product. Most guys will send their systems off to be flowed and let a company build their fuel curve and then they will fine tune them from there.

Personaly - I just chose to buy a "flowed pump" and then I build my own fuel curve. I think it gives me a better understanding and makes me a better tuner by doing so.

I also crew on a NHRA N T/F team and the Endele systems are just pretty much the driving force in that area of racing. The blown Nitro fuel system are quite a bit different from what I use on our own N/A stuff but the principle the same


Chris- BTW I have taken my system one step further for individual cylinder tuning also. I have machined my nozzel holders and use flowed " drop in pills" rather than the typical nozzel jet that really are not that accurate. Doing it that away has cleaned up some of the trouble cylinders for me. It's been a pretty clever deal so far. :wink:

2slow
03-19-2008, 09:55 PM
one wrote-- cylinder tell when to pulse. mechanical is constant flow- no pulse. can also move Rons injectors to top of manifold if need to. can drill and tap both -top & bottom and see which works best

588 Bantam
03-19-2008, 10:26 PM
When we decided to make the switch to methanol, we needed some expertise in the setup of the system. With no mechanical injection or alcohol experience, we could not afford to risk our new motor. Monroe got us close out of the box, so we didn't hurt anything. But there is room for improvement and we'll work on that this year.

There's no doubt you will learn more if you do more, but that always comes with a cost, whether its damaged parts or just additional time setting up. We are a long ways from the track and don't get there as often as we'd like so track time for us is at a premium. We just don't get any "test and tune" time.

Am I missing something here as far as the basic systems are concerned? They both regulate air flow to the motor, they both have a mechanical fuel pump and they both use a barrel valve to regulate fuel flow to the motor by controlling how much fuel is returned to the tank. How can either system have a distinct advantage over the other? Isn't it more a matter of preference?

ky mustang
03-20-2008, 12:12 AM
one wrote-- cylinder tell when to pulse. mechanical is constant flow- no pulse. can also move Rons injectors to top of manifold if need to. can drill and tap both -top & bottom and see which works best

Thats the reason they are not as accurate as a carb. They can get away with it on alcohol , but you don't see anyone racing them on gas .

blastertech70
03-20-2008, 01:24 AM
Brock - I belong to a website called www.hre.com it's a paysite dedicated to fuel injection. The site is sponsored by several fuel injection specialist companies like Gene Adams, Hilborn injection and Fuel injection Enterprizes and quillian Engineering all these guys are pretty well respected in the fuel injection world.

All the members are fuel injection racers from around the country and we even have some rom around diff parts of the world. There are bracket racers to Nitro fuel racer. Many of the guys are nastalgia races and jr fuel racers. It is well worth the 40.00 a year.

Every Fuel injection specialist I have heard all claim that the Hat style injection wins out on the dyno over the throttle body fuel injection. I quess the way I see it if the throttle bodies worked better the pro Fuel ranks would be using them over the Hat style injector.

HOTROD
03-20-2008, 04:46 AM
Enderle customer service simpily sucks!!

When I was setting up my hat system (bought used) I called and talked for quite sometime with Mr. Enderly and he was very helpful. He answered any questions and even sent me some helpful tips on injector set up.

588 Bantam
03-20-2008, 08:32 AM
Blastertech - thanks for the link, I'm going to join. Have you heard any opinions on the "Fuel Injection Basics 3rd Edition" book? Is it worth the $75.?
We got very good documentation with the Ron's setup, and James Monroe has been there to answer any questions we've had so far, and although we are newbs he doesn't make you feel that way. Great service.

BTW, my partner and I debated at length over which system to buy. We liked them both. We liked the simplicity of the hat installation on a tunnel ram, but we thought that if we decided to run an air filter that there's no way we would want a filter on the front of a hat. Looks are important to us and that would look butt ugly on our car. We decided to go with the dual terminator setup on the TR because even though we could have easily used a single throttle body, two on the TR would give us more equal air flow. Maybe - maybe not, but that was our theory. If we do decide to run a filter at some point we can buy or build a larger scoop that will accommodate a filter.

blastertech70
03-20-2008, 09:57 AM
Brock - The fuel injection part of the site is closed from non members so it is hard to get a feel for the site and veiw it's worth. Refunds are given if members are not satisfied, I wouldn't recommend it if I didn't feel the site was of worth.

I get less learning/information now then I did when I first joined but I have obtained so much knowledge from the site sence I have been a part of it. I hanen't tuned/learned much in the Stack injectors yet.

Jim Harveys fuel injection maual is well worth the investment as well.

blastertech70
03-20-2008, 10:18 AM
Hotrod -

Everyone has their own experiences and at the same time have different exspectations of the product and customer relatiom & service.

I can gaurantee that the Ron's system are with out a doubt one of the best customer related/ performance products . That is not a myth that is a known understanding by many of fuel injection racers. Them are just hard facts. Its the known downfall of the Enderle product by many of racers.

I found Enderle service to be very "generic" they give you a very safe tune up and there is "no" documantation offered on-line or when you purchase your product. If you want documatation you have to go to a "private injection specialist" to get the information. Kinler, hilborn, Rons systems all have very good documantation/books to provide you with learning.

Enderle give you a "non flowed pump" from the factory. Tell me how you are to get a accurate tune-up if there is no reference to what the GPM flow of the pump is. The answer is you get a "ball park" guess and you start from there. There reccomend tune ups are very "phat" because they build a safety into their lack of accuracy of the pumps performance. The pumps performance is the "heart" and accuracy of the system.

Enderle 80A-series pump are known by racers/builders in the industry to be in-accurate from the factory by at-least 1 gallon per min. They are also "old school" vane pumps and not untill this year produced a gear pump.

I like to give "racers" true and accurate information if I couldn't give accurate information then I would not offer it. I am an Enderle product and I am all about Hat injections I am just basing the honest good facts withe the honest not so good.

32 Altered
03-20-2008, 03:25 PM
I have a Ron's built Crower unit I wanted to try. It is the 8 port unit that goes on a tunnel ram. I was thinking of having Ron's flow it & mount to a manifold, but am going to run the gas carb for now, as I think bringing the time in to 8.60 will be easier with a Dedenbear disk stop than with the injector.

blastertech70
03-20-2008, 04:10 PM
Ron's bought out Crower injection, right ? I don't know the injection your talking aboy, is that the square pot ones?

HOTROD
03-20-2008, 04:17 PM
Blastertech,
I agree with the positive things that you say about Ron's Units. I too was having a problem finding much help with my Enderly unit but a friend gave the me Mr. Enderly's phone number and I was impressed with how helpful he was and the call back follow up that he did. He even sent me a nice packet of info that was a big help.

32 Altered
03-20-2008, 04:32 PM
Ron's bought out Crower injection, right ? I don't know the injection your talking aboy, is that the square pot ones?

Yes, Ron's bought them out. It is the magnesium 8 hole one. Has purple barrel valve & such. Nice big pump. I think it was on a BBC.

ironbark
03-20-2008, 04:47 PM
hey Blaster check this bloke out.
He is an ex-pat american living here Oz, he is a guru on hat injection.
his book is farly cheap, but has great information. speciallty endreele hat injection, highly recommend.
http://www.kenlowe.com.au/

TopSportsman916
03-20-2008, 05:43 PM
Chris -

No offense with the "sisses" thats just track talk between the Ron's guys and the Enderle's guys I can't beleive you haven't heard that crap before ? :lol: Honestly..just good fun I knew I would get a rise from someone LMAO

Sorry, I do think there is more learning curve in the Enderle injection over the Ron's injections. I thinks Ron's customer service and some of the horns/whistles he has done with his system has simplified the system.I think he gives his customers a much more positive tuned product without a doubt.

Enderle customer service simpily sucks, it's a "crap shoot" and the only way to get a properly tuned system is to buy a Enderle system from a Fuel injection company that deals their product. Most guys will send their systems off to be flowed and let a company build their fuel curve and then they will fine tune them from there.

Personaly - I just chose to buy a "flowed pump" and then I build my own fuel curve. I think it gives me a better understanding and makes me a better tuner by doing so.

I also crew on a NHRA N T/F team and the Endele systems are just pretty much the driving force in that area of racing. The blown Nitro fuel system are quite a bit different from what I use on our own N/A stuff but the principle the same


Chris- BTW I have taken my system one step further for individual cylinder tuning also. I have machined my nozzel holders and use flowed " drop in pills" rather than the typical nozzel jet that really are not that accurate. Doing it that away has cleaned up some of the trouble cylinders for me. It's been a pretty clever deal so far. :wink:

Blaster, I wasn't pissed off by any means. Trust me you would have been able to tell if I was.This is probably the first serious mechanical fuel injection talk on this web site. Interesting idea you have there about the individual pills. I have been playing with stagger jetting myself. I am also planning on flowing my fuel system for my 665 hemi. Just for the reason to have a good baseline set up that will save me time when we fire it up on the dyno. Plus I would like to know if my pump is flowing enough for this big beast. I have seen the HRE website but was a little leery about joining since I didn't know anything about it. I will have to check it out again. :D

blastertech70
03-20-2008, 07:24 PM
Chris -

I am glad I didn't offend you or anyone LOL :lol: I actually thought it was a pretty good thread also, alot of good useable information shared. There are a few of us injection guys on here now, gives us a corner to play in too. :wink:

I really do like the Ron's stuff, I tune on a crew with a Enderle hat but the Rons stuff is sorted out really nice and it is some really professional looking stuff too. My Hat came from a guy that swithched to Ron's only because he needed hood clearance. He said he the Ron's was more idle friendly and seen a very little diff in performance at the first crack.

I understand and agree the HRE site is a little "dull" to look at on the outside, dosn't give much for people to have an incenitive to join. Myself and others have talked to Jim about what we can do to make it more attractive. I wouldn't have joined myself if I didn't have conections/friends to give me some inside and tell me that it was worth my money. Hard to pay for something you can't see.

I don't know if you have ever visited the "spuds injection site" go to
http://fuelinjectionenterprises.com/ and go to the tune-up under the calculators. go to the N/A tune-up calculator and do some playing around on the calculator and get a feel for some tuning changes. This tune-up sheet is a great tool and the acuracy is just almost unbeleivable.

Jeff

blastertech70
03-20-2008, 07:31 PM
Hotrod - Everybodies experiences are different, sounds like you were able to get some good advice/treatment.

When I first started out it wasn't a source that worked well for me. I got some inaccurate information about my pumps /poppet's I just looked elsewhere for my learning curve and never looked back. 8)

ironbark
03-21-2008, 12:48 AM
another aspect to the injection saga is SPARK which I have not seen mentioned yet.
Spark is a little like money, you can't have too much, it is pointless putting that much fuel in if you can't burn it.
2.2 times the volume of gasoline, some people have a single high speed bypass, and others may run a series of them to control the fuel curve. depends on how exact you want to go. mine has a single at this stage and it seems to work fine at this stage.

as for the maintenance, who cares, because think about how long and hard you worked to get it to this stage, and the maintenance at the end of the meet takes 20 minutes. bigdeal.