Lesson Learned - Block Filler [Archive] - 460 Ford Forum

: Lesson Learned - Block Filler


HEMI-HUNTER
06-05-2008, 06:33 PM
well, my buddy had a D1VE A2A whatever 2 bolt main block and took it 110 over which left about 110 on the Cylinder walls, he poured the block with filler and and after about 6 passes it had a split in the cylinder--so he machined that cylinder out and pressed asleeve in it and after 4 runs it spit the sleeve. The block filler stuff is junk, after the motor got hot the filler broke away from the cylnders and did nothing but add weight to the block. Is there anything out there anybody knows about besides block filler that actually works????? i think maybe a good heat resistant 2 part epoxy?

thanks in advance

TRUKPULR
06-05-2008, 06:57 PM
Yes I know a Ford Motorsport A-460 or a IDT Eliminator block will hold up much better to that bore without filler then a Stock car block will with filler.





Dan

richter69
06-05-2008, 07:35 PM
I was thinking the same thing..................

HEMI-HUNTER
06-05-2008, 11:51 PM
i could have went to the little kids school for those replys.

you guys ever here of experimenting, running on the ragged edge, trying new things to make builds work better. i thought thats what hot rodding was all about. Hell, anybody can go out and buy a aftermarket block thats elementry, the question was block filler, do you know anykind of block filler that works well without breaking loose from the metal, the question was in referance to block filler--epoxy ect: If you don't have an answer or you have NO experiance with block filler (which is evident) keep your smartass answers to yourselves and use the scroll button. thats what thats for when you don't have a clue!

White90GT
06-05-2008, 11:56 PM
i could have went to the little kids school for those replys.

you guys ever here of experimenting, running on the ragged edge, trying new things to make builds work better. i thought thats what hot rodding was all about. Hell, anybody can go out and buy a aftermarket block thats elementry, the question was block filler, do you know anykind of block filler that works well without breaking loose from the metal, the question was in referance to block filler--epoxy ect: If you don't have an answer or you have NO experiance with block filler (which is evident) keep your smartass answers to yourselves and use the scroll button. thats what thats for when you don't have a clue!

Good to see you have money to burn, not everyone has a bottomless wallet so they stick to whats tried and true and recommend the same.

cougar1969
06-06-2008, 12:02 AM
well, my buddy had a D1VE A2A whatever 2 bolt main block and took it 110 over which left about 110 on the Cylinder walls, he poured the block with filler and and after about 6 passes it had a split in the cylinder--so he machined that cylinder out and pressed asleeve in it and after 4 runs it spit the sleeve. The block filler stuff is junk, after the motor got hot the filler broke away from the cylnders and did nothing but add weight to the block. Is there anything out there anybody knows about besides block filler that actually works????? i think maybe a good heat resistant 2 part epoxy?

thanks in advance


First off all you NEVER bore the block and then pour it with filler!!!!!!!!
the filler will distort the cylinders if you do it that way. You pour the filler first and let it set for several days to set up, then bore the block as needed checking it constantly...


Thats kind of like building a house and after it is done then pour the foundation under it... :roll: and then saying the concrete was junk... :shock:


Randy

TRUKPULR
06-06-2008, 07:27 AM
i could have went to the little kids school for those replys.

you guys ever here of experimenting, running on the ragged edge, trying new things to make builds work better. i thought thats what hot rodding was all about. Hell, anybody can go out and buy a aftermarket block thats elementry, the question was block filler, do you know anykind of block filler that works well without breaking loose from the metal, the question was in referance to block filler--epoxy ect: If you don't have an answer or you have NO experiance with block filler (which is evident) keep your smartass answers to yourselves and use the scroll button. thats what thats for when you don't have a clue!

Well Hemi hunter . I ran block filler in 7 of the last 9 engines I built. I always used the Moroso Grout type block filler .. One block did split the cylinder and I had it sleeved .. I'm still using it as my 532 back up motor.

Now as for your running on the ragged edge statement.

After pissing away close to $100,000 on motors over the last 10 years I found going the little kids school to be less expensive. Get your self something that isn't going to blow up and you'll save money in the long run. If your planing on building something that's going to put out more then 650 Horse go aftermarket block and you don't have to worry about making a pile of junk because you twisted the block and it spun your bearings or crack a cylinder due to the linear stress put on the block when you launch the car.

And I did answer your first question the best I could .

"Is there anything out there anybody knows about besides block filler that actually works????? "


Have a good day .



Dan

bruno
06-06-2008, 11:10 AM
i could have went to the little kids school for those replys.

you guys ever here of experimenting, running on the ragged edge, trying new things to make builds work better. i thought thats what hot rodding was all about. Hell, anybody can go out and buy a aftermarket block thats elementry, the question was block filler, do you know anykind of block filler that works well without breaking loose from the metal, the question was in referance to block filler--epoxy ect: If you don't have an answer or you have NO experiance with block filler (which is evident) keep your smartass answers to yourselves and use the scroll button. thats what thats for when you don't have a clue!


i dont think they were being a smart -*** dude !!! they were just giving an opinion---

know besides all of that i have a block with a block filler in it and it seems like the material is coming apart ??? almost like a fiberglass material--- i would never use again to fill a block...

so back to Jon and Trunkpulers OPINION what is the cost diff on average between the 2 ???

richter69
06-06-2008, 11:58 AM
Considering I have used block filler with great success in the past I would not consider my answer as being a smart ***. Now boring the cylinders paper thin and then blaming the filler for the stupid dumbass mistake I would say is pretty ironic.

Maybe you could coax procomp into making a cheap throw away block for people like yourself.

650 hp pretty ragged edge............

blastertech70
06-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Hemi-Hunter

I have used "hard-Block" on several BBC builds and never had a problem on a .100 over 454 blocks and there not near as safe as a BBF IMO.

1. Pretty important to get an even fill, sound like to me you didn't get a good fill, you may have rushed the whole process and the machine work is last.

2. Agitate it very very good as you fill it.

( I welded a 3/8 bolt to an air-hammer chisel, screwed it into a tranny bolt hole and jam nutted it tight and put the air-chisel while I filled the block)

3. You need to let the block "rest" and set a couple weeks min before you take it in and have the machine work done. Many builders would like to see a month

WFO
06-06-2008, 06:45 PM
I'd have to agree, I've used Hardblok brand filler, with no problem. Was the stuff you used namebrand? Did it get mixed with as little water as possible? Did air bubbles get worked out? Let it harden long enough before machining or putting into service?

hookedonpullin
06-07-2008, 12:31 PM
Isn't it funny that we're always bragging about how superior the bbf block is compared to the other brands, yet at the same time we say 650hp is the safe threshhold? Then you do some looking in the engine buildups and see that several reputable builders are making 800+ hp with oem blocks and they're not saying " this is a good build, but we sure hope the block stays together". I think alot of it goes back to the old saying " some people can break a cannon ball in a sandbox with there bare hands". If I had the extra 2600$+ I too would use an aftermarket block.

richter69
06-07-2008, 01:40 PM
my 650 ragged edge was a smart assed remark, oh course you can go higher and the difference in if it lives or dies is the prep and tune up etc.

I have used the Childes and Albert block filler, its hard to get but its just what we have had good success with.

Brad Johnson
06-07-2008, 01:56 PM
i could have went to the little kids school for those replys.

you guys ever here of experimenting, running on the ragged edge, trying new things to make builds work better. i thought thats what hot rodding was all about. Hell, anybody can go out and buy a aftermarket block thats elementry, the question was block filler, do you know anykind of block filler that works well without breaking loose from the metal, the question was in referance to block filler--epoxy ect: If you don't have an answer or you have NO experiance with block filler (which is evident) keep your smartass answers to yourselves and use the scroll button. thats what thats for when you don't have a clue!

If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. And damn sure don't get pissy when a bunch of people who've been there and done that tell you something you don't want to hear.

Brad

blastertech70
06-07-2008, 03:26 PM
Isn't it funny that we're always bragging about how superior the bbf block is compared to the other brands, yet at the same time we say 650hp is the safe threshhold? Then you do some looking in the engine buildups and see that several reputable builders are making 800+ hp with oem blocks and they're not saying " this is a good build, but we sure hope the block stays together". I think alot of it goes back to the old saying " some people can break a cannon ball in a sandbox with there bare hands". If I had the extra 2600$+ I too would use an aftermarket block.

Coming on this site over a year ago with NO BBF experience and plenty off BBC Chevy I would have never believed that a OEM BBF would be safe with a 4.440-4.500 bore and 4,500 crank and the block be able to live more than hard season of racing.

From past experience I can tell you a BBC 454 block won't go bigger than 4.350 bore 4.300 stroke and live much more than a hard season of racing before your re-blocking. If your doing 520's inches in a OEM BBC your living life dangerously IMO.

I think if I were to do another BBF build and use an Oem block and wanted to maintain a wet block. I would consider staying with a 4.440 bore and a 4.500 crank and splayed caps. I would stay around 14-1 comp on gas and use an A-460 head w/2.300 valve and a dominator and that’s about the limit that I think push the OEM block if I expected a reasonable amount of reliability and maintain a safe feeling that I was in the green.

IDT-572
06-08-2008, 11:57 AM
Blaster,

I guess this time next year I can give you the results on my build. It's the same engine you described but with ported TFS Streets, 861 hp.

I am of the same opinion as you. At the hp level your talking If you want more power , an aftermarket block is definitely in order. looking back, if I hadn't machined the block myself and used the Cat caps to save some $600- $800, I probably would have went ahead bought an aftermarket block.



Blake

D's557BBF
06-12-2008, 03:03 PM
Maybe you could coax procomp into making a cheap throw away block for people like yourself.



http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/derby721/SMILIES/lmao.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/derby721/SMILIES/lmao.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/derby721/SMILIES/lmao.gif

TRUKPULR
06-12-2008, 07:19 PM
Now this is funny. 2 years ago my Buddie Bruce and I where driving to a pull in Illinois and we where talking about motors. It was time for him to build a new motor and he didn't know which way to go. Re bore the block and get new pistons and crank or keep his current rotating assembly and just get a new block. We came to the conclusion that the most expensive part of a motor is the rotating system. If he was to bore bigger and get new pistons 850.00 and Billet crank 2500.00 he'd have to have the whole kit an kaboodle rebalanced 200.00. Where a New block cost $2295. at the time, add in Machine work and you could have a new motor for under 3000.00.

As it turns out he sold his motor and build a brand new from the ground up one instead.



Dan

rmcomprandy
06-13-2008, 04:52 PM
I guess some people simply have better luck when filling production blocks; (for the past 25 years anyway).

I have used both 636 and 816 Embeco metalic grout as block fill with no problems for a loooong time.

1lowet
06-16-2008, 04:06 AM
one of my machinist use block filler and a vibrator. then he uses a sealer after the filler has set .says he has had no problems since going this route :)

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.S.
06-20-2008, 04:32 PM
Yea, the Embeco stuff is great. It doesn't shrink or pull away from the cylinder walls when cured if you mix it correctly. And as pointed out in other posts on the subject, block filler might help bearing life because it is thought to act like a large vibration dampener. I know my Cleveland stuff had better looking bearings after I started using the Embeco grout.

There's only so much that any filler is going to help on a partial fill if you have paper thin cylinder walls anyway. The unsupported top section of the cylinder wall is still a possible problem area if it's real thin.

gpaulsen
06-21-2008, 11:01 AM
I heard know one bring up that you should torque a head on after its poured .

bruno
06-21-2008, 12:28 PM
I heard know one bring up that you should torque a head on after its poured .

great point !!!!

bruno
06-21-2008, 12:33 PM
Prep Block:
Clean engine block. Hot tank cleaning is preferred. With compressed air, blow dry block. Insure that water jackets are COMPLETELY DRY. On the front of the block tape up ½” of water jacket (Install timing cover to hold Hard Block in water jacket). Remove cover & tape after set-up time and clean up for assembly. Minimum temperature for installation is recommended at 50°. If temperature is below 65°, you will need to double ALL set-up times shown below. Install freeze plugs. Mount block on engine stand. Torque main cap bolts. Level deck with bubble level.

Installation
First place water in bucket (8 oz/ 1 cup); slowly pour contents of Hard Block into water. Mix thoroughly for 5 Minutes. Mix should be creamy and of such consistency to pour through a ½” funnel. If mix is too stiff, add additional water one ounce at a time and remix. Again, mix should be consistent with NO water on top, with even distribution of the heavier particles. If any settlement of heavier particles is noticeable, too much water has been added. Working time after mixing is 30-40 minutes. DO NOT add more water if mix begins to stiffen. It must be discarded. After Hard Block is thoroughly mixed, pour into the water jackets through several holes in the deck using a ½” Funnel. Work the Hard Block with a stiff wire to assist in consolidation around cylinder walls and to eliminate any air pockets. Gentle vibration of the block will level the surface. Strong Vibrations from air or impact tools are NOT recommended. Allow block to set undisturbed over night or for 24 hours if temperature is below 65°. After allowed set-up time, machine and/or hone cylinders. Block is ready for assembly.

away
07-01-2008, 11:03 PM
Can you fill the block after machining? Reason for the question is I have had issues spinning bearings. Everything that is checked block, line bore, crank, clearances, rods, oil pump etc.....checks o.k. I seen a comment about twisting the block and spinning bearings......could this be the case???? Comments?????? 521 TFS heads 2660lb car 5.87 @ 117 MPH....1050 8896 gas........lost need help please

richter69
07-02-2008, 10:23 AM
What oil pan? windage screen? I'd look into the oiling rather than a block twist. Is it main or rod bearings? Crank type and brand????????

away
07-02-2008, 10:49 AM
Moroso 20614 pan was running a girdle and had to remove the windage tray to fit so I thought.....simple mistake......rod bearings are the ones spinning....mains look starved for oil a little. History is always spinning #4 rod......I added bushed lifter bores and a titan oil pump with an external oil line from the front of block to rear top of block to oil from both ends.....this time 6 passes and #2 main starved and got #2 rod bearing. This time I have removed the girdle re-align honed the block and am going to add restrictors under #2,3,4 mains along with adding the windage tray back and putting in a stock regular volume pump.

Probe Industries 4340 crank 4.300 stroke
I-beam 4340 rods
Probe flat-top pistons
TFS heads

cougar1969
07-02-2008, 11:34 AM
Moroso 20614 pan was running a girdle and had to remove the windage tray to fit so I thought.....simple mistake......rod bearings are the ones spinning....mains look starved for oil a little. History is always spinning #4 rod......I added bushed lifter bores and a titan oil pump with an external oil line from the front of block to rear top of block to oil from both ends.....this time 6 passes and #2 main starved and got #2 rod bearing. This time I have removed the girdle re-align honed the block and am going to add restrictors under #2,3,4 mains along with adding the windage tray back and putting in a stock regular volume pump.

Probe Industries 4340 crank 4.300 stroke
I-beam 4340 rods
Probe flat-top pistons
TFS heads



first of all the girdle is not needed but the windage tray is so you kept the junk and forgot the important part..All these engine need windage trays but not girdles.


And no you can't pour the block after machine work is done that what brought up this thread.. :shock:


Randy

blueblood
07-18-2008, 06:15 AM
for HEMI-HUNTER there is a product called EPIREZ, this an epoxy type material that i have used myself with no problems, some local engine builders prefer this over [hard blok/block fill etc.] after using quality block fill in my little brothers new 604, i think i prefer epoxy !! to many other different questions to answer from your other replies

blueblood
07-20-2008, 10:53 AM
for AWAY, keep the titan pump, keep the bottom end girdle, make the windage fit around it!!, look at oil surge problems? sump design? what bearing clearances are your running and what oil are you using. a well made girdle will help a stock block survive well beyond it"s wildest dreams