Question for stock susp.guys

I have a 93 coupe that we have been building.Small block,power glide,Mini tubed 10.5w tire.I was planning on putting adjustable upper and lowers in it.I have used the southside bars in the past with good luck.But this time i was planning to use the southside brackets and go with the adjustable bars.My question is do or have any of you played with the mounting points of the lowers or the uppers and what seems to be the best position?What has worked best for you?The car should weigh around 2700,engine dynoed @ 641@7600 plus 2 stage 400 shot,5500 converter.Was looking at 28x10.5w tire with 4:30 gear.Any help and suggestions would be appreciated.

I'd avoid the southside if your going for a real fast car, IMO they are fine on slower stuff but a hinderance when you start to turn it up. Adjustable upper, lowers and a anti roll bar would be my preference.

It will have the anti-roll bar and both adjustable uppers and lowers.Do you think the lowered mounting point of the southside brackets give it too much lift?

Yes, I wouldn't use them. The stock points are fine for a car with some hp. IMO

if it's race only make sure to run solid bushings or at least hard poly ones, you don't want to much deflection

It will have sperical bushings in housing and 5/8 sperical rod ends on the bars.Mounted just like a ladder bar or 4-link.

Tony,
One of the best people to talk to on Stock Suspension would be Dave Zimmerman of Team Z Motorsports. I have asked him to come and talk to you about this. I have worked on quite a few stock suspension cars, but he is the best in my opinion! He is personally doing a lot with Ford Racing and has a pretty impressive customers list... keep an eye out for him.

I second Team Z, they are very helpfull their stuff fits likr a glove and works great. Ward

Dave is pretty busy today, but he told me that he would sign up and help out as soon as he could!

Thanks Cale.We have built several stock suspension but as i mentioned before just used the older stuff that was avalible and never really built one that has had this setup in it.

dfree is wright........south sides are also hell on torqe boxes when serious horse power is applyed. They lift the car on a hard launch & when the unload they tend to spin the tires. Cole it would be great if Zimmerman could join the group! I have most of his parts on my car.

Dave is going to get on tomorrow. He had a 12 hour day and wasn't able to get on, but I enjoy working with him and stock suspension is his world! Can't think of anyone better at it than him.

With my SS mustang I found that doing what you are talking about using the instant center brackets or ICB's with adj bars worked great when on motor without along of pwr but when I would hit it some spray and really start hitting the tires pretty hard it would spin then a fella told me to take those ICM's off and it would quit all that crap... well he was right all I did was remove those brackets and went from tires spinning to 1.23 sixty ft so all that to answer your question NO I would not try that just use the adj bars only with the anti roll and sperical bushings just my 0.02 hope it helps Josh

how about wolf race craft they have a few records under their belts?

Thanks Dfree,Chuck,Josh. I have heard of people using different methods of mounting the upper bars and such and was just wandering if anyone here has tried it and if so how well it worked or didnt work.Thanks for the input.
Question for ya josh? How low was your car?

IMO, and that's not worth much, extra support of the factory locating point is needed to combat flex. Also, the location of the upper mounting points (body) will need addressing as power increases. The ability to move the instant center forward and up. Adjustable bars are just a step above the factory parts and offer a bit of adjustment, that's about it, I think!

Just my $0.02!
Dave.

I have reinforced all the mounting points both upper and lower.Added extra gussets every where possible and doubled the thickness of the mounting points.Car will also have coil overs on rear insted of factory springs.

extra support of the factory locating point is needed to combat flex. Also, the location of the upper mounting points (body) will need addressing as power increases. The ability to move the instant center forward and up. Dave.
How do you add extra support to the mounts? Baseline Suspension has a setup to reloocate upper control arm mounts, is that what your talking about? From the picture I can't figure out how it's supposed to help?:confused:
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/kits/ford.htm
Gary

I just welded up the boxes and everything that was spot welded under the car.Then took 1/8 steal plates and made gussetts that attached the upper boxes to the frame in about 3 more places.Also tied the two upper boxes together.Boxed the lowers and doubled the wall thickness and fully welded them also.

Add plate and weld up all seams. On the uppers I like doing a plate sandwich and a couple of thru bolts. Thier are some kits avaliable if your not to handy at fabricating.

My boxes are welded up and plated on the bottom. I guess I should plate the sides where the bolts go thru and add some gussets to beef it up. What can be done to relocate the uppers to get a better IC.
Gary

I don't believe it's necessary to do any relocations to have everything work just fine.

I have a 93 coupe that we have been building.Small block,power glide,Mini tubed 10.5w tire.I was planning on putting adjustable upper and lowers in it.I have used the southside bars in the past with good luck.But this time i was planning to use the southside brackets and go with the adjustable bars.My question is do or have any of you played with the mounting points of the lowers or the uppers and what seems to be the best position?What has worked best for you?The car should weigh around 2700,engine dynoed @ 641@7600 plus 2 stage 400 shot,5500 converter.Was looking at 28x10.5w tire with 4:30 gear.Any help and suggestions would be appreciated.

We have moved pick up points on the housing and on the body to get a favorable I/C. "what is the best position" That's not an easy question to answer, there are too many variables to give you a really good answer, But we have tried Instant center locations from 24" to 54'' with varied results.
I will tell you that the South side lower bracket is probably not a good idea, with the power your making, the amount of anti squat would probably hit the tire hard then UN load in about 20 feet!
Another thing to remember is the lower you set the car the harder it will be to get Stock suspension to work "REAL WELL" when I say real well I mean to it's potential, We have several Stock suspension Mustangs 60 footing 1.14 to 1.17 regularly, once we figure out what the car needs for an I/C Given it's power we can usually dial it in with shock and strut adjustments and springs.
Again everything has to be right, converter, springs, strut and shock settings, but a stock suspension car can work better than a ladder bar!

For your application I would look to have an I/C length of about 34'' and a height of 8'' with a 10.5 W tire.

how about wolf race craft they have a few records under their belts?

Got a question.

2 fox body mustangs line up, one is a coupe with a 418 windsor and an F2R super charger and stock suspension, the other is a hatch with a 400+ inch windsor and a 116 mm turbo with stock suspension. The coupe makes about 1500 hp and the hatch over 2000.
The tree comes down they both leave, The coupe Walks the hatch to the 330, it sixty foots in the low 1.20 while the hatch sixty foots in the low 1.40's By the 1/8 the hatch is blowing by the coupe and runs a 7.42 to the coupes 7.90!
The above story is true the 7.40 run was a record!

Now back to the question which car had a better working suspension?

Another question. If the car that won and set the record had Kirkey seats in it, would that make the kirkey seat the fastest seat because it was bolted to the car for the ride?

Dave is right in that point...

Not trying to take anything away from anyone, but that your suspenssion and Chassis quality and correctness is measured at 60'. That is the way it works from small tire... to Pro Stock.... to Top Fuel! For us in Pro Stock, if you lose .01 in the sixty, then you will lose .03 or .04 in the 1/4 mile.

That is why Turbo cars have worse 60' times on 10.5 tires, and still run quicker to the end. Good point!

how about wolf race craft they have a few records under their belts?
Dave @ Team Z: I dont think this was meant to be an insult against Team Z. There are probably more than a few of us on here that run
Wolfe Racecraft Suspension. I had Wolfe suspension on mine long before I even knew that you were in the Mustang suspension business. In fact since your located in Michigan, I would have preferred to do business with you! Thank you for volunteering to give suspension advice on the forum.
Gary

Gary... your right. I know Dave wasn't trying to say anything more than what I said. It is becoming a perfected science and there are some things you can do now to get the most out of your setup, and each setup isn't the same. They have to be done on a case by case basis!

Dave @ Team Z: I dont think this was meant to be an insult against Team Z. There are probably more than a few of us on here that run
Wolfe Racecraft Suspension. I had Wolfe suspension on mine long before I even knew that you were in the Mustang suspension business. In fact since your located in Michigan, I would have preferred to do business with you! Thank you for volunteering to give suspension advice on the forum.
Gary


Gary I didn't take it as a shot at me at all, and my response was a true story. I wanted to get people to realize that if a car runs a record time but runs poorly to the 330 the record came from power not suspension!

Thanks for thinking about us Michigan guys we all know how tough it is right now in this state!

In the past few years i have set fox bodys up with QA1,UPR,AJE & PA performance. I decided to try D Zimmerman K mem with 1" shorter a arms, nothing else had the fit & finish @ good price like Team Z. I think Dave offers more of a custom peice to the average joe's like my self. Keep up the good work & thanks for your time!

dfree is wright........south sides are also hell on torqe boxes when serious horse power is applyed. They lift the car on a hard launch & when the unload they tend to spin the tires. Cole it would be great if Zimmerman could join the group! I have most of his parts on my car.

I just this week removed the southside bars for just this reason

I can't say enough good things about Dave at TeamZ, my chassis that he is building is a work of art. I have sent many people to him over the years, infact EVERY person has thanked me because of how Dave treated them, the quality of work, and how quickly the work was completed.

thanks for not takeing me as trying to be an azz,i just wanted to know how things stacked up.i realise that not everyone has the funds to throw at a project and it go down the track perfect everytime.

i started my project over 2 years in total it took me over a year to figure out what direction i wanted to go in.so stock suspension it is mainly because of a wider verity of classes offered.i had my eye on the real street,top street,outlaw street classes but the guys are now going 3/4 of a second faster than when i started the project.now im thinking i need about 700 cubic inch motor and noz just to qualify in the lower quick 16.looks to me that bracket racing will be moor affordable?

I spoke with Steve Johnson @ induction solutions, he has set up several foggers for me. He said he was going to check the site out.........Just like alot of others he will be a great asset. With the internet so clouded in BULL ****, you still get some of best answers from here.

We have moved pick up points on the housing and on the body to get a favorable I/C. "what is the best position" That's not an easy question to answer, there are too many variables to give you a really good answer, But we have tried Instant center locations from 24" to 54'' with varied results.
I will tell you that the South side lower bracket is probably not a good idea, with the power your making, the amount of anti squat would probably hit the tire hard then UN load in about 20 feet!
Another thing to remember is the lower you set the car the harder it will be to get Stock suspension to work "REAL WELL" when I say real well I mean to it's potential, We have several Stock suspension Mustangs 60 footing 1.14 to 1.17 regularly, once we figure out what the car needs for an I/C Given it's power we can usually dial it in with shock and strut adjustments and springs.
Again everything has to be right, converter, springs, strut and shock settings, but a stock suspension car can work better than a ladder bar!

For your application I would look to have an I/C length of about 34'' and a height of 8'' with a 10.5 W tire.

Thanks Dave,I apreciate the information.It will give me a starting point.I dont want to slam the car,but would like to tuck the tires under the fenders.I figured the lowering would have some affect on the susp.as you dont have adjustable mounting points on the body.I noticed someone stated you build 1inch shorter a-arms.Is this to get the front wheels back under the fenders?We have had a problem with this on other cars and have been buying expensive wheels to off set them as much as possible.

Chuck that would be great,as i have not bought my nitrous setup yet.I have been looking at speedtechs fusion 2 stage plate.I didnt want to tap the intake just yet,so i was looking at a plate system.

i started my project over 2 years in total it took me over a year to figure out what direction i wanted to go in.so stock suspension it is mainly because of a wider verity of classes offered.i had my eye on the real street,top street,outlaw street classes but the guys are now going 3/4 of a second faster than when i started the project.now I'm thinking i need about 700 cubic inch motor and noz just to qualify in the lower quick 16.looks to me that bracket racing will be moor affordable?

Sad but too true, I hear the same story every day, That's why I don't own a race car anymore! Hard work and knowledge can go a long way but you cant out run CUBIC DOLLARS!

I know it's going to sound like a sales pitch but after years of racing buying parts that didn't fit, and having to modify them I said it's time to do it right, I priced my parts to be competitive with everyone else but used better Materials, Cad design and analysis and most importantly made sure the fit and worked!

Believe it or not we know how much it cost to race so we want our parts to be the parts people choose not because they are the cheapest but because they work!
That's why I still build 15-25 cars a year and you'll find me at the track about 3 time a week testing with customers, what we learn at the track defiantly finds it way into the cars we build and the parts we make in house!

Thanks Dave,I apreciate the information.It will give me a starting point.I dont want to slam the car,but would like to tuck the tires under the fenders.I figured the lowering would have some affect on the susp.as you dont have adjustable mounting points on the body.I noticed someone stated you build 1inch shorter a-arms.Is this to get the front wheels back under the fenders?We have had a problem with this on other cars and have been buying expensive wheels to off set them as much as possible.

Yep we build 14" 13" 12" and adkustable A arms so you can tuck the frond wheels and set stager!

Yep we build 14" 13" 12" and adkustable A arms so you can tuck the frond wheels and set stager!

What do you have to do with the top of the strut when you use the shorter a-arms?

I spoke with Steve Johnson @ induction solutions, he has set up several foggers for me. He said he was going to check the site out.........Just like alot of others he will be a great asset. With the internet so clouded in BULL ****, you still get some of best answers from here.

Thats Bruno's nitrous guy!:D
Gary

What do you have to do with the top of the strut when you use the shorter a-arms?

use a good caster& camber plate!

dave get to work and your phone has been busy for hours

Hey Dave you guys should sell your through the floor sub frame connectors as a kit...

I actually never heard of throught the floor sub connectors until I saw a article in Fastest Street Car magazine and I took it upon myself to guess on the tubing and set out using 2 inch square tubing to put in my turbo Notch I'm building .. I also plan to buy Daves rear suspension and wheel tub kit to mini tub it so i can fit 325/50/15 Mickey Dr's on the back on stock 10 hole rims Weldcraft is going to build me .. Just have to wait to get the money as I am in Michigan and our company cut back hours .. I'm building a turbo motor on the cheap .. it just goes to show if you aren't afraid to get dirty and cut up a car you can do stuff without a deep pocket..LOL Great stuff Dave..Need an apprentice?Id love to get into car building..I eat sleep and drink racing.