crank laid on side...truth or wives tell??? [Archive] - 460 Ford Forum

: crank laid on side...truth or wives tell???


Smasher O'Brannan
08-15-2009, 12:41 PM
this is one of those age old questions. Its still unclear to me whats the truth and whats not.....I've always been told to never lay a crank on its side and should be either stood on end, stored in block, or hung straight up and down........I have heard what I just stated and also I've heard that its just a "wives tell", that no harm could come. Now whats the REAL TRUTH???

lx545
08-15-2009, 12:52 PM
it will sag over time

bcr466
08-15-2009, 01:00 PM
What then keeps them from sagging when stored in a box from the manufacturer on shelves or pallets for extended time?

Smasher O'Brannan
08-15-2009, 01:12 PM
mustangsandfords magazine says:

Laying A Crank On Its Side
Absolutely never lay a crankshaft on its side-not even for a few minutes. Crankshafts should always be stored standing straight up or hanging from a storage fixture. Laying a crank on its side will cause permanent damage.


engine builder joe mondello:
Once the caps are removed, remove the
crank by lifting it straight up and setting it down standing up on it’s flexplate mounting flange. Never lay
a crank down flat for any period of time; it will become warped up to .010 to .015. Now you can examine



copied from a forum:


Even the stoutest metal will "creep" under continuous stress. This is a process where the macro metal does not see enough stress to cause permanent deformation. On a micro (atomic) level, however, distinct atomic bonds do see enough stress to cause these bonds to break and create a deformation on the atomic level. Over a period of time, these atomic level deformations add up and can be measured at the macro level.

What you have with a crank laying on its side is a relatively heavy object resting on a few points (due to the geometry of the counterweights and throws) with relatively large spans unsupported in between supports. Over time, the crank will "creep" out of shape.

IMHO, the best method to store a crank would be on the mains using v-blocks (precision machined and perfectly in line with one another). Second would be in the block assuming the block is straight and properly supported. Finally, stand it on end or hang it from the snout. I would never lay one on its side for storage unless I was planning on having it machined.

jpierce55
08-15-2009, 01:19 PM
I wonder on this one a lot. The crank is on its side resting on a few points in the block, but I suppose it is the "right" points. A new crank has what 2 chunks of foam? 1 on either end and that will not cause it to sag? I find it hard to believe a few minutes would damage it.

Still, I have always kept them in the block or standing upright.

Smasher O'Brannan
08-15-2009, 01:22 PM
I wonder on this one a lot. The crank is on its side resting on a few points in the block, but I suppose it is the "right" points. A new crank has what 2 chunks of foam? 1 on either end and that will not cause it to sag? I find it hard to believe a few minutes would damage it.

Still, I have always kept them in the block or standing upright.

I would like to know also....I found some stuff as I have posted........but still no hard evidence for "any length of time"......or just a "few" minutes...but I would really like to know. I can see after a few months/etc. But just a little while seems a good debate.

bruno
08-15-2009, 01:30 PM
this is a pretty cool read

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/376275-crankshaft-storage-2.html

Big_Block_Pony
08-15-2009, 01:40 PM
This is a good topic and I know I am curious how this will pan out. Although they say to never lay a crank on it's side, could that possibly be an attempt to keep people from getting into the habbit of leaving the crank on it'a side. If left for a long length of time I could see it distorting the crank. When I sent my block to the machine shop to get 4 bolt mains installed they had my crank ( luckily hanging from a rack ) and block for 10 months.

Gary

Smasher O'Brannan
08-15-2009, 01:44 PM
this is a pretty cool read

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/376275-crankshaft-storage-2.html


Did you see the smokey yunich bit?......interesting

OldRedFord
08-15-2009, 01:45 PM
I have had a crank in a box now for 10 months. Oops. :(

I guess I am screwed?

blownjet13
08-15-2009, 01:53 PM
Stored one in a box on its side for 10 years just pulled it out & checked Straight as an arrow.
Think about this does your crank run in your motor in a vertical position. (Standing up) ;)

OldRedFord
08-15-2009, 01:56 PM
Stored one in a box on its side for 10 years just pulled it out & checked Straight as an arrow.
Think about this does your crank run in your motor in a vertical position. (Standing up) ;)
But in a engine it is evenly supported along the main bearing line. Laying flat you have the counter weights in different planes.

blownjet13
08-15-2009, 02:01 PM
But in a engine it is evenly supported along the main bearing line. Laying flat you have the counter weights in different planes.

How about in a box for ten years? less than .0002 Run out .001 is industry acceptable standard.

C-Leigh Racing
08-15-2009, 02:34 PM
How about in a box for ten years? less than .0002 Run out .001 is industry acceptable standard.

You got lucky, there are such things you know.

I dont care if one or the other say to lay them down, old old greese monkeys said to stand them up, & thats what I'll do. I even bolt the gear back on an old used cam & stand it up.
I come from the foot hills of NC, where Nascar was formed & if it said ok to stand them by Junior Johnson or Curtis Turner, guess what I'm going to do.

On another note though, just any ol machine shop tell you to lay it down & then in the end it get bent, guess what, more money in their pocket cause you got to replace it.
Neil

Barry_R
08-15-2009, 02:51 PM
I vote for B.S.
A crank can take 2000+ psi in cylinder pressure without taking a permanent twist.

If its hanging from the flange all the weight is trying to bend it from the topmost journal intersection - or from the bottom if standing. But sitting for fifteen minutes - or fifteen years on its side is somehow gonna turn it into spagehetti.

I suspect that they are stored standing up because they take up less room that way in the shop. And the urband legend took hold from there....

wvmudder
08-15-2009, 03:01 PM
OK, but when the crank is setting on the end, bottom, mounting flange(whatever its called) isn't almost all the weight still being supported by one of the journals close to the bottom? You would think that would distort it as well since the bottom most rod journal is not in the crank centerline and supporting the weight of the entire crank above it.

Dave S.

Performance Crankshaftinc
08-15-2009, 04:05 PM
this is the place to say " you should always search the item you are inquiring about before posting " because we have been here before ... two schools of thought .. If a crank can bend from sitting on its side ( you really need to determine wether it is supported by the counterweights or the ends of the crank ) then it can just as easily bend from sitting on its end because all the weight of the crank is on the last throw .... bottom line , if a crank can bend from sitting its end or its side I dont want it in my engine ..... since all this is a fairy tail please dont lose any sleep over it , I dont and I have as many sitting on end as I do on their side .. and I sleep just fine ....

moparman
08-15-2009, 04:20 PM
I personally only stand them up when I don't have the room to lay them down. Nothing irritates me more than knocking over a brand new crankshaft...

peckerwood
08-15-2009, 05:45 PM
I second Barry R's opinion,checked them that have been laying down for

years, no more out of tolerance then those stored vertical.

Remember metal has a"memory" and wants to return to it's original form

once pressure is removed. I am at the moment trying to adjust my titanium

glasses frames no matter how hard I try they return to original shape.The

dreaded metal memory syndrome!

J Y/b

32 Ford roadster

32 3window coupe

71 GT Torino

27 Ford roadster Dry Lakes delux

F350 diesel dually

Focus ST

BBFmavrick
08-15-2009, 08:38 PM
I'am in no way any kind of expert on this subject BUT,I do agree w/Barry and Adney. BECAUSE of this subject I was given a perfectly good 4.15 BBF crank from a mud drag racer that blew his new engine on it's maiden run. Well, he took the engine apart in 1997 and never put it back together. I heard he had some BBF parts that he might sell so I looked him up. Sure enough he had this crank thrown in a corner of his shop w/journals wrapped up but it had been lying on it's side for 10 yrs. He told me I could have it for free if I bought the 6 good pistons and 8 alum. rods.So I figured also that the crank was junk,but my machinest said he figured it was fine. Sure enough I watched as he chucked it up, and he said it was good as new.:o So now I just store them standing upright to save space:)

pullinpower
08-15-2009, 10:59 PM
I second Barry R's opinion,checked them that have been laying down for

years, no more out of tolerance then those stored vertical.

Remember metal has a"memory" and wants to return to it's original form

once pressure is removed. I am at the moment trying to adjust my titanium

glasses frames no matter how hard I try they return to original shape.The

dreaded metal memory syndrome!

J Y/b

32 Ford roadster

32 3window coupe

71 GT Torino

27 Ford roadster Dry Lakes delux

F350 diesel dually

Focus ST

well, if you want to adust the flexon frames...... keep in mind, if it's the memory metal portion then you have to adjust, bend it far in excess of where you want it to be to stay in position. If it is the outer corners of the frame, they are not memory metal, and can be adjusted regularly....... FYI, it isn't pure titanium, it's a titanium plastic alloy believe it or not.

sean

Chuck Stevens
08-15-2009, 11:03 PM
I've got a couple of old 392 Chrysler cranks under a bench that have been in their "boxes", supported by the front and rear mains only, for well over 20 years. I'll bet that if I cleaned them off and set them in Vee blocks, they'd be within a thou. or two.

bcr466
08-16-2009, 12:13 AM
I've got a couple of old 392 Chrysler cranks under a bench that have been in their "boxes", supported by the front and rear mains only, for well over 20 years. I'll bet that if I cleaned them off and set them in Vee blocks, they'd be within a thou. or two.

And I would bet that you would be right, Chuck.

fordsbyjay
08-16-2009, 03:48 AM
this is a pretty cool read

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/376275-crankshaft-storage-2.html

Damn Bruno, did you see that IB Tim has over 52000 posts in that thread. And here we thought you were a post whore. LOL.

CutawayAl
08-16-2009, 10:46 AM
One of the properties of steel and iron is that they do not creep/cold flow. If they did, bolts and rivets would eventually loosen; steel bridges would get sway-backed over time; measuring instruments would self-destruct just from laying around; engine blocks would warp from years of being suspended between the front and the trans tailshaft; cars would end up on the bump stops even if not driven; cams and lifters in unused engines would develop flat spots, etc, etc.

As was pointed out, if the metal "crept", the stress resulting from storing a crank vertically on the flange, or hanging it from a rack, would cause it to distort, just differently than laying it down. What about putting the crank in a box and shipping it? Unless UPS messes up that doesn't bend it.

Many otherwise savvy people believe this legend. If Mondello, Smokey believe it, all that proves is no one knows everything. Nothing said here is likely to change anyone's mind one way or the other. People believe what they chose to believe. A lot of these pearls of wisdom are based on: I did "A", I observed "B", so A caused B. For example, tomatoes were once thought to be poisonous. Probably someone ate one, fell over dead, and the survivors took that lesson for what it seemed to be. That doesn't make it so.

68FSTBCK
08-16-2009, 11:50 AM
My wife asked what I was reading,I told here it was about if a crank should be straigth up or on its side. She said, it allways starts out straight up and ends up on its side:eek:. Thats the wife's tail:)

blownjet13
08-16-2009, 01:04 PM
You got lucky, there are such things you know.

I dont care if one or the other say to lay them down, old old greese monkeys said to stand them up, & thats what I'll do. I even bolt the gear back on an old used cam & stand it up.
I come from the foot hills of NC, where Nascar was formed & if it said ok to stand them by Junior Johnson or Curtis Turner, guess what I'm going to do.

On another note though, just any ol machine shop tell you to lay it down & then in the end it get bent, guess what, more money in their pocket cause you got to replace it.
Neil
Sorry I dont report luck only facts. If luck is involved then about 90% of all the performance engine that Have Chinese Cranks in them, would all be bent. (Eagle,Scat,RPM,etc. How do you think they are stored and shiped. On There SIDE banded to pallets for Months sometimes up to a year or more.
Crankshafts metal have a memory Thats why there so hard to straighten,
For example ir you have a crank bent .010, you put it in the press and push it the opposite way .020, .030 or more and it just springs back to were it was
usally you have to push it way past the amount your trying to straighten (Scary) then hit it in the radius with a blunt chisel and hammer for it to take a set. So do you think laying it on its side with no outside force acting upon it is going to bend it? Probably not.

blownjet13
08-16-2009, 01:06 PM
My wife asked what I was reading,I told here it was about if a crank should be straigth up or on its side. She said, it allways starts out straight up and ends up on its side:eek:. Thats the wife's tail:)

That theres funny, I don't care who ya are:D

557MAV
08-16-2009, 06:29 PM
for years at the nationals we were driving around the pit and came up on the pros and what did we see?ups.the guy opened the door and BAM 10 bryant cranks in boxes on there sides wraped in plastic for shipping.from the manufacture to the air strip,fork lifted ,bumped nudged,slid,bounced,(road)(turbulance)on its way to the pits,then unloaded and layed on there sides buy the crew and stacked on top of each other.I dont know about you people but i cant afford 10 bryant cranks to gamble with.the boxes dont have v-blocks for suport.just my .02

DFI429
08-16-2009, 10:10 PM
I vote for B.S.
A crank can take 2000+ psi in cylinder pressure without taking a permanent twist.

If its hanging from the flange all the weight is trying to bend it from the topmost journal intersection - or from the bottom if standing. But sitting for fifteen minutes - or fifteen years on its side is somehow gonna turn it into spagehetti.

I suspect that they are stored standing up because they take up less room that way in the shop. And the urband legend took hold from there....

...If Mondello, Smokey believe it, all that proves is no one knows everything...

Camshafts ship in cardboard boxes, cranks in wooden 'crates'... Anyone who believes these wives' tales is on crack, and spending too much money :rolleyes:

I come from a meticuous machinist background, and all things considered, it's nothing but BS. Those who claim 'storage' factors killed their engine should've checked their parts in the first place :o

schmitty
08-16-2009, 10:31 PM
My local machinist puts cranks in his grinder and they are only supported on the ends while being ground. If they don't bend while having the mains and rods ground down (some heat created and applied) I highly doubt that they will bend while being motionless and no heat buildup laying on their sides. These are some very large and sturdy pieces of metal that take a huge amount of torsional force every time a piston is pushed down the bore by exploding gas/alcohol. The crank guys (Adney and Barry) aren't concerned and that is gospel to me.;)

DFI429
08-16-2009, 10:58 PM
...The crank guys (Adney and Barry) aren't concerned and that is gospel to me.;)

Should be for everyone ;)

It's amazing how people get spooked, and how easily..

mguy
08-16-2009, 11:28 PM
I think there's some confusion over a couple of things.

First, Cutaway Al is correct that steel and iron won't "cold creep," but the phenomenon in question is called "thermal droop," which means that pressure and temperature are the parts of the equation (temperature is always a function of pressure, which is why there's snow on mountaintops and rock becomes molten in the earth's core). Yes, bridges don't suddenly buckle and rivets don't get so loose they will come out with a flick of a butterknife . . . but, bridges and buildings are engineered so that the material meets the temperature and pressure standards of the environment.

Second, we are talking thousandths and tenths when it comes to cranks being out, not anything big. But when you are building an engine, that's the level of machining you have to stay within, thousandths of an inch. That's why machinists keep their instruments at room temperature. No, bridges don't droop, but I betcha they get out by a few hundred thousandths? maybe even a couple of inches? Bridges and such are built with such tolerances in mind, not .001 or even .0001 in mind.

Third, don't confuse long-term storage with setting something on a table for a small amount of time. Thermal droop has to occur over time if at all. It's not immediate, not even likely, not predictable like water freezing at 32* fahrenheit. It's closer to a pile of oily rags spontaneously combusting. If you pile up greasy rags, they won't burst into flame as soon as the last rag drops. But, if conditions are right, and if conditions continue to stay right, combustion becomes more and more likely as time goes on.

Crankshafts "may" droop if left on their sides due to multiple factors-- weight, temperature, structure, integrity of the metal, dumb luck. Not "will" but "may," meaning "has the possibility." Water will freeze at 32* fahrenheit and at the right pressure. A meteor "may" strike me down before you finish reading this long-*** post.

So, if you gotta lay the crankshaft down to take a pee, take off for the weekend, or wait a month or so until your next paycheck, you'll be fine. If you want to store a crankshaft for an extended period, proper storage of a crankshaft would be resting it on the main journals. Would I bet that a crank will bend if left on its side for a couple of years? Heck no. Highly unlikely. Would I take precautions? Yes.

m9a3r5i7o2n
08-18-2009, 09:39 AM
This is one of the most interesting posts I've read here. Maybe even tho it isn't about something highly critical. If read from the first it shows a progression from almost superstition to some of detailed examination of the story. I especially like the one about Smokey Yunick.
My comment/question about it is if this happens to a crankshaft then what happens to a camshaft? 1G acts on every object no matter how large or small.
Yours, M.L. Anderson

mguy
08-18-2009, 10:44 AM
This is one of the most interesting posts I've read here. Maybe even tho it isn't about something highly critical. If read from the first it shows a progression from almost superstition to some of detailed examination of the story. I especially like the one about Smokey Yunick.
My comment/question about it is if this happens to a crankshaft then what happens to a camshaft? 1G acts on every object no matter how large or small.
Yours, M.L. Anderson

The reason a crank would "droop" would be the extreme distance between the rod journals and the main journals. A camshaft is essentially a solid stick of metal with some bumps on it, so the conditions for it to droop would be almost impossible to obtain. So, theoretically, anything can droop, but in real life, impossible for that camshaft to droop by itself.