Do BBC's make way more HP then BBF's??? [Archive] - 460 Ford Forum

: Do BBC's make way more HP then BBF's???


Filucky
05-29-2010, 10:36 AM
I while back i was asking if a 900hp pump gas BBF was possible and i was told to forget about it wasn't practical (even with ported A460 heads, Trickflow TR w/1050's) but doing some research i've noticed that there are lots of 900hp pump gas BBC's out there, most are 550-572 c.i. with "out of the box" heads with a mild clean-up on them and a single carb. The heads used are said to be about 400cfm standerd port stuff. These pump gas BBC's seem to be com'ing from the same builder and same dyno shop. So are BBC's that much better for making big hp on pump gas or are the engine builder and dyno shop full of ****?

CarsByCarl
05-29-2010, 10:56 AM
Gonna get my popcorn for this one. :rolleyes:

devon514
05-29-2010, 11:39 AM
So are BBC's that much better for making big hp on pump gas or are the engine builder and dyno shop full of ****?


where i`m there has been people that claimed this before and the number at the track told a different story . the best i seen the baddest pump gas big chevy go around here was low 10`s thats a bit far off the numbers. magic dyno`s and the fastest credit card machine around.

rmcomprandy
05-29-2010, 11:42 AM
I while back i was asking if a 900hp pump gas BBF was possible and i was told to forget about it wasn't practical (even with ported A460 heads, Trickflow TR w/1050's) but doing some research i've noticed that there are lots of 900hp pump gas BBC's out there, most are 550-572 c.i. with "out of the box" heads with a mild clean-up on them and a single carb. The heads used are said to be about 400cfm standerd port stuff. These pump gas BBC's seem to be com'ing from the same builder and same dyno shop. So are BBC's that much better for making big hp on pump gas or are the engine builder and dyno shop full of ****?

"Out of the box" heads and over 400 cfm doesn't correlate ... unless the heads are NOT production port location heads.

A simple look at the "GM Performance Parts" 572 crate motors for pump gas will give a TRUE indication of what Chevy has to offer on a "big motor" production type platform...

If you want to listen to Bull $hit, I can tell you that all day long and it still won't make it an actuallity.

bigblok86ranger
05-29-2010, 12:01 PM
Practical and possible are 2 different things all together!!! I asked for advice on a 650hp pump gas engine and alot of people kept saying I needed 13:1 compression and wasn't practical but I am happy to say it is possible. Kaase built a 512 I believe it was, several years ago that made 812hp on 93 octane with ported A429 heads. I don't think it is likely with otb heads though.

PS I even had one guy accuse me of being a street racer which I am not and don't approve of it at all. I just don't want to spend $7/gallon on racing gas in a dual purpose vehicle. 900hp is not a dual purpose engine though.

rmcomprandy
05-29-2010, 01:21 PM
I build ALL brands and I have built six Chevrolet big block engines with that kind of power using pump gas and mostly "out of the box" parts; for "Offshore Pleasure" boats.

It was NOT even close to "standard port stuff".

1. 604 cubic inches; first class rotating assemblies
2. 9.7/1 compression ratio
3. 18 Dart "Big Chief" heads
4. Cast Dart tunnel ram manifolds
5. Two #8896 Holley Dominators
6. "Middle of the road" Marine roller camshafts.
7. Gil Marine wet sump oil pans.
Made 1,000 horsepower however, it also cost about $17,000.00 each in the end; in the mid 90's.

EDIT: Possible and practical depends upon how deep your pockets full of money are.

TorinoStyle2
05-29-2010, 01:46 PM
Build for 600 hp, then spray the remaining 300-400 with NOS!!.....WHAM!!...instant 900 hp!!

2slow
05-29-2010, 02:01 PM
Out of the box , AFR std. port BBC heads can flow 400cfm . not said in the OOTB claim by the buyer --is they are c n c ported .

Filucky
05-29-2010, 02:34 PM
Heres a video i ran across, 572 BBC, RHS heads, single carb on 91 pump gas, 885hp. They claim it is all very simple bolt on ready parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8av5_ln60BI

DaveMcLain
05-29-2010, 02:47 PM
I just finished a Big Chevy project for a customer. 582 cubic inches, AFR 335 runner heads and a mild roller cam with a little over .700 lift. It's for his jet boat and it's 10:1 compression and intended to make maximum horsepower at about 5800rpm. It makes 700 horsepower at that rpm and 700lbs/ft torque and it's taken his boat to 99.1 mph with two people and 18 gallons of gas.

Getting it to make 700 horsepower at below 6000rpm and with a cam this mild was NOT easy. The heads flowed 405cfm at .700 lift and were worth about 50 horsepower over a set of heavily ported(not by me) Merlins.

Most of the off the shelf/out of the box Big Chevy heads are not very good and that's a FACT. What's really interesting is that one of his buddies has a 598 that supposedly made 860 horsepower yet it only runs about 90 in a nearly identical boat. Maybe it does make that power but in order to do so is probably spinning 1000 more rpm and that's not practical in a jet boat that's truly a cruiser.

windsor
05-29-2010, 04:19 PM
good time to quote Seth's 557 build again, me thinks:

Dyno Numbers: http://www.460ford.com/forum/showpost.php?p=635044&postcount=27

Build Thread: http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114035&highlight=Finally+made+progress

Filucky
05-29-2010, 04:47 PM
good time to quote Seth's 557 build again, me thinks:

Dyno Numbers: http://www.460ford.com/forum/showpost.php?p=635044&postcount=27

Build Thread: http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114035&highlight=Finally+made+progress

Thats a very nice build for sure, but keep in mind those are "raised port" race heads and it still fell 70hp short of 900hp on 80% pump gas, But i do have a feeling Seth's 557 would out pull most of these 900hp BBC's on a "good" dyno.

windsor
05-29-2010, 04:53 PM
what builder you reference is building those 900hp BBC's? Got a link?

Filucky
05-29-2010, 05:03 PM
I build ALL brands and I have built six Chevrolet big block engines with that kind of power using pump gas and mostly "out of the box" parts; for "Offshore Pleasure" boats.

It was NOT even close to "standard port stuff".

1. 604 cubic inches; first class rotating assemblies
2. 9.7/1 compression ratio
3. 18 Dart "Big Chief" heads
4. Cast Dart tunnel ram manifolds
5. Two #8896 Holley Dominators
6. "Middle of the road" Marine roller camshafts.
7. Gil Marine wet sump oil pans.
Made 1,000 horsepower however, it also cost about $17,000.00 each in the end; in the mid 90's.

EDIT: Possible and practical depends upon how deep your pockets full of money are.

Were the "big chief" heads some of that "out of the box" stuff? :) Wasn't a set of fully ported big chief heads flowing around 470-480cfm? seems like they were kinda between a A460 and a C460 if i remember right, but i really dont keep up on the BBC stuff.

Filucky
05-29-2010, 05:26 PM
what builder you reference is building those 900hp BBC's? Got a link?

DNE out of CA and they dyno there stuff at Westech dyno. They also built a 565 BBC pump gas deal with a single carb and it was dyno'd @1050hp. I just find it a little bit funny that one engine builder and this one dyno shop can keep turning out numbers that just isn't being done around the rest of the country, but maybe the're just that good?

kid460
05-29-2010, 06:22 PM
no they dont my buddies dad has a 572 in his 70 chevelle not the crate motor it has afr's completly ported supposidly flows over 400cfm and it also has a 6 pak on it an i was there when they dynoed it an it got 658hp at the flywheel an my buddies dad wanted as much hp as he could get thats what he told the builder and for 14 grand i would of told him to rebuild it

TorinoStyle2
05-29-2010, 06:24 PM
Westec is not that far above sea level, and being located in an area known as the "Inland Empire", its almost always in a high pressure weather pattern....which means theres a little more atmospheric pressure to push air into a cylinder. Almost like a very slight "supercharging" effect compared to many other parts of the country.

Plus, they do know their stuff!!...they have turned out some very strong engines of all types.

Filucky
05-29-2010, 07:18 PM
Westec is not that far above sea level, and being located in an area known as the "Inland Empire", its almost always in a high pressure weather pattern....which means theres a little more atmospheric pressure to push air into a cylinder. Almost like a very slight "supercharging" effect compared to many other parts of the country.

Plus, they do know their stuff!!...they have turned out some very strong engines of all types.

A 548 BBC built by DNE and dyno'd at westech made 829hp on pump gas, when he put it in his jetboat it only turned 5800rpm, he was running an "A" cut, so that would be about 620hp, long way off from 829hp. He bragged up DNE and Westech all day long right untill he put the motor in his boat and it ran about 80 mph, it was for sale shortly after that. :)

rmcomprandy
05-29-2010, 08:00 PM
Were the "big chief" heads some of that "out of the box" stuff? :) Wasn't a set of fully ported big chief heads flowing around 470-480cfm? seems like they were kinda between a A460 and a C460 if i remember right, but i really dont keep up on the BBC stuff.

Those "Big Cheif" heads were UNPORTED directly "out of the box" complete roller cam ready heads from Dart; I don't even know the airflow, they never had the valve springs taken off from the time they came out of the box till the time those engines got shipped. The cast Dart Tunnel Ram was also an UNPORTED "out of the box" part.
The carbs were tuned on the dyno.

Lem Evans
05-29-2010, 08:26 PM
Dallas,
This whole deal is about a NUMBER....your number.....i.m.o. the numbers are bullcrap that the bbc guys /drag rags/any mofo on a street corner qouted.
A 588" or bigger A460 headed deal, moderatley ported w/one carb would do what need to do. To do what you want to do you need lots of power at a moderate rpm.....a bbf is very good at this...properly spec'ed . An unit like this may are may not make 900 HP.....it'll just kick *** .
I'll take my chances with a 879 hp bbf vs a 950 bbc any day.

fordpower
05-29-2010, 08:41 PM
Dallas,
This whole deal is about a NUMBER....your number.....i.m.o. the numbers are bullcrap that the bbc guys /drag rags/any mofo on a street corner qouted.
A 588" or bigger A460 headed deal, moderatley ported w/one carb would do what need to do. To do what you want to do you need lots of power at a moderate rpm.....a bbf is very good at this...properly spec'ed . An unit like this may are may not make 900 HP.....it'll just kick *** .
I'll take my chances with a 879 hp bbf vs a 950 bbc any day.

X2........THANK YOU Lem!!!!!!

Lem Evans
05-29-2010, 08:47 PM
Sometimes "we" make things harder than they are.

Filucky
05-29-2010, 11:05 PM
Sometimes "we" make things harder than they are.

By "we" do you really mean "me"? :) Sometimes i get bent out of shape deal'n with chevy guys and there bs dyno results. I've given up on the whole 900hp pump gas deal and i'll be happy with whatever the new motor makes.

Lem Evans
05-29-2010, 11:06 PM
"WE" is all of us......depends on the day and subject ...;-}

G-Code
05-30-2010, 12:39 AM
I while back i was asking if a 900hp pump gas BBF was possible and i was told to forget about it wasn't practical (even with ported A460 heads, Trickflow TR w/1050's) **?

Who ever your were talking to is an idiot. Give me the money and I'll get 3 people I know to build you a 900+ hp pump gas 565-582" A-460 headed engine with a single carb. I know about 90% of the parts, but I don't build engines, I just think them up and pay for them( the easy part) Not saying it will be cheap but it can be done and I know 3 if not 4 people who could do it here in San Diego County.

FYI, if you wanted a T/R I'd either use the old "john Holms" T/R or a sheet metal I wouldn't use the new style short T/R.

G-

Jon

TorinoStyle2
05-30-2010, 12:40 AM
A 548 BBC built by DNE and dyno'd at westech made 829hp on pump gas, when he put it in his jetboat it only turned 5800rpm, he was running an "A" cut, so that would be about 620hp, long way off from 829hp. He bragged up DNE and Westech all day long right untill he put the motor in his boat and it ran about 80 mph, it was for sale shortly after that. :)

LOL...maybe he should have had Westec build it too!!

G-Code
05-30-2010, 12:47 AM
DNE out of CA and they dyno there stuff at Westech dyno. They also built a 565 BBC pump gas deal with a single carb and it was dyno'd @1050hp. I just find it a little bit funny that one engine builder and this one dyno shop can keep turning out numbers that just isn't being done around the rest of the country, but maybe the're just that good?


Some of the older Westech dyno numbers were a bit biased for "Magazine Correction Factor" They got a beating for that for years and it came to a head when they did the Engine Master's Competition there and engines from all over the country made about 5% more there than the home dyno's. That was a long time ago 2002 or 2003 I think.

The dyno room at Westech is the best air flowing room I've been in. Killer system for air control.

As far as DNE goes, I don't recall him doing anything off the shelf. I know 3 people who got engines from him. They perform as advertised to the purchaser. DNE builds some great stuff, he is not for everybody but he produces some stout engines. He does have his own engine building thoughts that can run contrary to popular belief. If he tell's you he can build you a 900 HP pump gas 572-588" Bow-Tie take his word for it.




G-

Lem Evans
05-30-2010, 01:07 AM
"Give me the money and I'll get 3 people I know to build you a 900+ hp pump gas 565-582" A-460 headed engine with a single carb. I know about 90% of the parts, but I don't build engines, I just "
You said it all right there.......

G-Code
05-30-2010, 01:42 AM
"Give me the money and I'll get 3 people I know to build you a 900+ hp pump gas 565-582" A-460 headed engine with a single carb. I know about 90% of the parts, but I don't build engines, I just "
You said it all right there.......

Well the 565 is going back together within the next month, I had two choices: lower the compression to 10-10.25:1, change the cam a bit to run it on 91 and make 900-920hp or bump the compression to 13:1 keep the same cam and shoot for 990 hp. I choose to do the latter. Danny and I walked through it and it just came down to ordering the pistons. I ordered them on Friday

I have no doubt that the parts in my 565 with pump gas compression and a new cam from Danny Crower can make 900+ hp and I have a choice of a T/R piece of cake. Hell it might do it with the cam I already have.

G- :)

95lightiningguy
05-30-2010, 02:01 AM
If it was so much easier to make power in a chebby wouldnt they be winning EMC every year? Just something to think about. I like to point this out all the time to the chebbie boys around here :D gets there panties all in a wad!:eek:

rmcomprandy
05-30-2010, 08:58 AM
Some of the older Westech dyno numbers were a bit biased for "Magazine Correction Factor" They got a beating for that for years and it came to a head when they did the Engine Master's Competition there and engines from all over the country made about 5% more there than the home dyno's. That was a long time ago 2002 or 2003 I think.

The dyno room at Westech is the best air flowing room I've been in. Killer system for air control.

As far as DNE goes, I don't recall him doing anything off the shelf. I know 3 people who got engines from him. They perform as advertised to the purchaser. DNE builds some great stuff, he is not for everybody but he produces some stout engines. He does have his own engine building thoughts that can run contrary to popular belief. If he tell's you he can build you a 900 HP pump gas 572-588" Bow-Tie take his word for it.

G-

The heads certainly WON'T be "out oif the box - standard port" heads;

"out of the box - with raised exhaust ports"" already ported by the manufacturer maybe...

Filucky
05-30-2010, 09:33 AM
Some of the older Westech dyno numbers were a bit biased for "Magazine Correction Factor" They got a beating for that for years and it came to a head when they did the Engine Master's Competition there and engines from all over the country made about 5% more there than the home dyno's. That was a long time ago 2002 or 2003 I think.

The dyno room at Westech is the best air flowing room I've been in. Killer system for air control.

As far as DNE goes, I don't recall him doing anything off the shelf. I know 3 people who got engines from him. They perform as advertised to the purchaser. DNE builds some great stuff, he is not for everybody but he produces some stout engines. He does have his own engine building thoughts that can run contrary to popular belief. If he tell's you he can build you a 900 HP pump gas 572-588" Bow-Tie take his word for it.




G-

I would never trust a dyno shop (or engine builder) that gives BS numbers to sell their stuff, its a moral issue for me. How could you ever tell someone your "dyno numbers" with a straight face? Its onething if you don't know, but when you do know then its just a lie.

Perform as advertised: 829hp turning an "A" impeller 5800?

Filucky
05-30-2010, 09:53 AM
Who ever your were talking to is an idiot. Give me the money and I'll get 3 people I know to build you a 900+ hp pump gas 565-582" A-460 headed engine with a single carb. I know about 90% of the parts, but I don't build engines, I just think them up and pay for them( the easy part) Not saying it will be cheap but it can be done and I know 3 if not 4 people who could do it here in San Diego County.

FYI, if you wanted a T/R I'd either use the old "john Holms" T/R or a sheet metal I wouldn't use the new style short T/R.

G-

Jon

These wouldn't happen to be the same people that some how managed to only make 885hp (on westech's dyno) out of a 532 BBF with Trickflow A heads, 13:1, and a .800+ lift cam are they? Whats with the "angle milled heads" ? sounds like he let the BBC boys go crazy with his BBF. :)

Filucky
05-30-2010, 10:10 AM
Just for the record, i don't care about Westech, DNE or really any other engine builder or dyno shop for that matter. I started this thread because i read about BBC's with less head flow, comp, cam and carb that are making more power then the BBF, So one has to figure that the BBC really is that much better then the BBF or the BBC guys are full of crap. :)

Harold
05-30-2010, 10:29 AM
So are BBC's that much better for making big hp on pump gas or are the engine builder and dyno shop full of ****?


where i`m there has been people that claimed this before and the number at the track told a different story . the best i seen the baddest pump gas big chevy go around here was low 10`s thats a bit far off the numbers. magic dyno`s and the fastest credit card machine around.


Any body you talk to about bb chevies, seem to be full of ****, I don't bother to talk to them.:D

Filucky
05-30-2010, 10:59 AM
Any body you talk to about bb chevies, seem to be full of ****, I don't bother to talk to them.:D

Thats some very good advise, i think i need to start doing the same. :)

CarsByCarl
05-30-2010, 11:12 AM
There's only one venue that's even close to a level playing field for "pump gas dyno racing", and I don't recall BBC's dominating in any way.

richter69
05-30-2010, 11:12 AM
Well the 565 is going back together within the next month, I had two choices: lower the compression to 10-10.25:1, change the cam a bit to run it on 91 and make 900-920hp or bump the compression to 13:1 keep the same cam and shoot for 990 hp. I choose to do the latter. Danny and I walked through it and it just came down to ordering the pistons. I ordered them on Friday

I have no doubt that the parts in my 565 with pump gas compression and a new cam from Danny Crower can make 900+ hp and I have a choice of a T/R piece of cake. Hell it might do it with the cam I already have.

G- :)

You should get the place that built that 1000hp P51 headed deal over on the 'bullet to build yours, then you'd be golden.................;)

G-Code
05-30-2010, 12:00 PM
I would never trust a dyno shop (or engine builder) that gives BS numbers to sell their stuff, its a moral issue for me. How could you ever tell someone your "dyno numbers" with a straight face? Its onething if you don't know, but when you do know then its just a lie.

Perform as advertised: 829hp turning an "A" impeller 5800?

I have a dyno sheet that says my 565 make 896HP at 6,200 at it's turning an MPD "B" impeller at that rpm. Does that mean my enginge sucks or my dyno sheet is off ?????? That 896 is 825 observerd.

As far as the engine in question what were the observered numbers and at what rpm? It wounldn't be the first engine built that had a cam in it that couldn't over a big impeller.

I have a friend who's av gas DNE 598" BBC made 987 @ 6,800, 848 lbs ft @ 4,800 with two Holley 950hp's, heads are Dart 360's. The boat runs 114 with a 6,400 chip in it.

G-

G-Code
05-30-2010, 12:01 PM
You should get the place that built that 1000hp P51 headed deal over on the 'bullet to build yours, then you'd be golden.................;)


I posted there last night. I'd like to see the dyno sheet on that ;)


G- :)

Filucky
05-30-2010, 12:28 PM
I have a dyno sheet that says my 565 make 896HP at 6,200 at it's turning an MPD "B" impeller at that rpm. Does that mean my enginge sucks or my dyno sheet is off ?????? That 896 is 825 observerd.

As far as the engine in question what were the observered numbers and at what rpm? It wounldn't be the first engine built that had a cam in it that couldn't over a big impeller.

I have a friend who's av gas DNE 598" BBC made 987 @ 6,800, 848 lbs ft @ 4,800 with two Holley 950hp's, heads are Dart 360's. The boat runs 114 with a 6,400 chip in it.

G-

Whats you motor make, 935hp? And it only turns a B impeller 6200? Without a impeller chart in front of me i'd guess you should be about 6800-6900rpm, and thats with a perfectly tight pump, any worn parts and it should be even higher. As far as your buddies 598 why would anyone have a motor that makes max hp @6800 and then limit it to 6400?

Impeller charts are pretty accurate and a good way to see how much power your really getting to the water. :)

G-Code
05-30-2010, 12:35 PM
These wouldn't happen to be the same people that some how managed to only make 885hp (on westech's dyno) out of a 532 BBF with Trickflow A heads, 13:1, and a .800+ lift cam are they? Whats with the "angle milled heads" ? sounds like he let the BBC boys go crazy with his BBF. :)


I think you're talking about Wayne's engine?

Did you just say only 885 ? That's 1.66 hp cu.in for a single carb that's not bad. My 565 made 935 hp with some limitations in '07 that's 1.65 hp/cu.in with 12:1 comp. So I think the 532 did okay. There are always limitations. The limitations on that engine are the heads and the cam.

If Wayne wants 900 HP out of it he needs to go to Ti intakes valves, call my buddy Danny Crower for a cam that will let it rev to his original goal of 7,400-7,600 and Bingo. It's only money. I'm still not sure what the heads flow but anything over 425 cfm should allow it to make the 900 hp goal.

And no those aren't the guy's who would build my engine. My old friend Gregg Gossett from Total Performance is doing my rebuild for me, the next on my list that could do it is Danny Crower (son of Bruce Crower), then my Cylinder head guy Geoff Mummert, and lastly my old friend Randy Walls ( Nostalgia Funny Car racer) you give any of them the money and tell them you want a 900 hp pump gas A-460 headed engine from 565-604" they'll deliver it to you. You give me the money and I'd have one of them build it for you ;) If you wanted a single carb engine that's a bit more challenging than a sheet metal T/R but not out of reach.

From scratch I'd start with at least a 582" (4.60 x 4.375) that puts the hp/cu in number at 1.54 hp/cu.in. That's a bit of an advantage over a 565 where it would be 1.59 hp/cu.in. Every little bit helps. My buddy Geoff would do the heads like mine and Danny Crower would do the cam. The rest of the stuff is easy ;)

G-

G-Code
05-30-2010, 12:48 PM
Whats you motor make, 935hp? And it only turns a B impeller 6200? Without a impeller chart in front of me i'd guess you should be about 6800-6900rpm, and thats with a perfectly tight pump, any worn parts and it should be even higher. As far as your buddies 598 why would anyone have a motor that makes max hp @6800 and then limit it to 6400?

Impeller charts are pretty accurate and a good way to see how much power your really getting to the water. :)


I wrote my post to see how you would respond, and you did as I expected. First not all impellers are the same, my MPD "B" stainless impeller bites like an "A+" on the Berkley Jac Sea chart. It takes an honest (observed) 825 hp to turn 6,200. It takes 1,200 hp on the Nos to turn it 6,800. It's a "B" impeller.

My buddies engine is limited to 6,400 because the boat runs 114-115 there. His boat gets "Scary, very scary" past that. It will run 120 plus at 6,800 but the boat won't stay in the water. So a simple rev chip solves the problem.

As far as impeller charts go....I know all about them, just do a search on " Impeller Chart" on Performance boats and see who's charts are posted, mostly mine. You should have been around in the old " Hot Boat" days. I caused all kinds of hell with my impeller charts ;)

G-

Jon

Filucky
05-30-2010, 12:56 PM
I think you're talking about Wayne's engine?

Did you just say only 885 ? That's 1.66 hp cu.in for a single carb that's not bad. My 565 made 935 hp with some limitations in '07 that's 1.65 hp/cu.in with 12:1 comp. So I think the 532 did okay. There are always limitations. The limitations on that engine are the heads and the cam.

If Wayne wants 900 HP out of it he needs to go to Ti intakes valves, call my buddy Danny Crower for a cam that will let it rev to his original goal of 7,400-7,600 and Bingo. It's only money. I'm still not sure what the heads flow but anything over 425 cfm should allow it to make the 900 hp goal.

And no those aren't the guy's who would build my engine. My old friend Gregg Gossett from Total Performance is doing my rebuild for me, the next on my list that could do it is Danny Crower (son of Bruce Crower), then my Cylinder head guy Geoff Mummert, and lastly my old friend Randy Walls ( Nostalgia Funny Car racer) you give any of them the money and tell them you want a 900 hp pump gas A-460 headed engine from 565-604" they'll deliver it to you. You give me the money and I'd have one of them build it for you ;) If you wanted a single carb engine that's a bit more challenging than a sheet metal T/R but not out of reach.

From scratch I'd start with at least a 582" (4.60 x 4.375) that puts the hp/cu in number at 1.54 hp/cu.in. That's a bit of an advantage over a 565 where it would be 1.59 hp/cu.in. Every little bit helps. My buddy Geoff would do the heads like mine and Danny Crower would do the cam. The rest of the stuff is easy ;)

G-

I've moved on from the pump gas 900hp dream, and have settled on a 13:1, 588 with a single carb. I'd love to make close to 900hp with it and that should be more then enough for my heavy family boat to run well over a 100 and thats good enough for me. :)

rmcomprandy
05-30-2010, 01:19 PM
Spend the money on a 12-71 supercharger with a 528 inch engine and get way more power than you are talking about here for a lot less money.

G-Code
05-30-2010, 01:21 PM
Whats with the "angle milled heads" ? sounds like he let the BBC boys go crazy with his BBF. :)

I didn't know they milled his heads.......


I don't see the problem with it if done right:


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/A-460headrefresh.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/A-460combustionchamber.jpg


66cc chambers with BSFC #'s in the .3xx's ( peak trq .331 peak power .38) You just got to love an efficient chamber.

Your 588 will have no problem making more than 900 hp. How much more is a matter of the "more perfect" combination.

G-

G-Code
05-30-2010, 01:22 PM
Spend the money on a 12-71 supercharger with a 528 inch engine and get way more power than you are talking about here for a lot less money.

Blowers are for people who need a crutch ;)

G-

CarsByCarl
05-30-2010, 01:53 PM
Blowers are for people who need a crutch ;)

G-

Or people that need more reliability/driveability. :rolleyes:

G-Code
05-30-2010, 02:16 PM
Or people that need more reliability/driveability. :rolleyes:


Hummm 500"+, efi and an F-4:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/F-4Supercharger.jpg


It's only money.

But it's still a crutch ;)


G-

White Lightning
05-30-2010, 03:13 PM
Hummm 500"+, efi and an F-4:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/F-4Supercharger.jpg


It's only money.

But it's still a crutch ;)


G-

ROFLMAO....HOLY CRAP! Is that a pump to empty out lakes with???

Diggindeeper
05-30-2010, 03:50 PM
Any body you talk to about bb chevies, seem to be full of ****, I don't bother to talk to them.:D

Its not just the BBC guys. The SBC guys are just as bad.
I worked with a guy who claimed he had a camel back headed 327 making 660 hp with a juice cam and stamped rockers. :D

I just let him bull**** and think that I believed him.

Filucky
05-30-2010, 04:05 PM
Hummm 500"+, efi and an F-4:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/F-4Supercharger.jpg


It's only money.

But it's still a crutch ;)


G-

Just to get his butt handed to him by a turbo'd SBF :)

HotRodLincoln
05-30-2010, 04:45 PM
I didn't know they milled his heads.......


I don't see the problem with it if done right:

66cc chambers with BSFC #'s in the .3xx's ( peak trq .331 peak power .38) You just got to love an efficient chamber.

Your 588 will have no problem making more than 900 hp. How much more is a matter of the "more perfect" combination.

G-

"peak trq .331"

That's an amazingly efficient engine! I thought .45 was good .40 outstanding Or am I just 20 years behind the times?

What's the CR on that engine? I suppose the BFSC would be lower on a pump gas (91 octane) build?

bcr466
05-30-2010, 05:24 PM
Were the "big chief" heads some of that "out of the box" stuff? :) Wasn't a set of fully ported big chief heads flowing around 470-480cfm? seems like they were kinda between a A460 and a C460 if i remember right, but i really dont keep up on the BBC stuff.

I'm sure that the heads were out of the box. Most heads do come in a box. Then the question arises, just whose box did they come out of??? Sonny's, Fulton? See what I mean?

Filucky
05-30-2010, 05:29 PM
Blowers are for people who need a crutch ;)

G-

Funny, Thats what i think about nitrous :)


No seriously, To each their own but i would never run a blower or nitrous in a boat i put my wife and kids in, too much risk for me. :(

White Lightning
05-30-2010, 06:32 PM
Lucky, I've seen and known lots of motors and boat motors that have blowers on them. If you don't get crazy with the boost, say in the 5-8 PSI range, they can be a safe, reliable and efficient way to make power. Look at all the turbo cars that the manufacturers are producing now a days, not to mention all the diesel motors for years have been blown. I'll have to agree to disagree with you folks on this issue. Power adders make easy and less expensive horsepower.....
Rob

rmcomprandy
05-30-2010, 06:38 PM
Funny, Thats what i think about nitrous :)


No seriously, To each their own but i would never run a blower or nitrous in a boat i put my wife and kids in, too much risk for me. :(

You never have to pay more money to go refill a constant volume blower and changing the drive ratio gets you exactly where you need to be for perfect consistancy in whatever class you are running.
There is absolutely no more risk than an "all out" NA engine running the same amount of power.

Filucky
05-30-2010, 06:54 PM
Randy and White Lightning, Being a open motor jetboat the back seat is inches from the motor. There was a lady in a boat a lot like mine with a blown BBC in it that grabbed ahold of her hair and she reached back to pull her hair from the blower and she lost several of her fingers and alot of hair and scalp. They make blower guards but its still just not worth the chance when it comes to my wife or kids. Same deal with nitrous, with the motor inches away from peoples heads with nothing to stop a nitrous explosion it wouldn't be good. I know these are rare deals but i don't like to take any chances, especialy with kids. If it was a single seat drag boat it would be a differnt story.

K.B.R
05-30-2010, 07:45 PM
Can't really put any change in a answer for this but here are some links from the other side.

Here is a question same as here.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291748&highlight=555

A couple of 555ci builds
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317322&highlight=555
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258562&highlight=555

Not NA but like to compare to KY's 562.Nitrous motor.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258562&highlight=555

And a Pontiac for the hell of it.
http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3815452#post3815452


Sorry for all the reading guys.

rmcomprandy
05-30-2010, 11:18 PM
Randy and White Lightning, Being a open motor jetboat the back seat is inches from the motor. There was a lady in a boat a lot like mine with a blown BBC in it that grabbed ahold of her hair and she reached back to pull her hair from the blower and she lost several of her fingers and alot of hair and scalp. They make blower guards but its still just not worth the chance when it comes to my wife or kids. Same deal with nitrous, with the motor inches away from peoples heads with nothing to stop a nitrous explosion it wouldn't be good. I know these are rare deals but i don't like to take any chances, especialy with kids. If it was a single seat drag boat it would be a differnt story.

In that case, I understand but, make it clear that it is in no way the FAULT of the engine.
I know almost intimately, (I refresh the engine every other year), of a prop driven, open engine "Ski" boat with a "V" drive having a bench front seat and two seperate rear seats, (the "V" drive is in the middle back there), which has all that blower belt stuff in the rear by the transome. He runs it all the time with his family and friends on board and when the drag boats come to town, he steps-up the blower drive and runs in the 9.0 second bracket.

EDIT: SO, it really depends upon the boat more than the engine, I guess.

G-Code
05-30-2010, 11:25 PM
"peak trq .331"

That's an amazingly efficient engine! I thought .45 was good .40 outstanding Or am I just 20 years behind the times?

What's the CR on that engine? I suppose the BFSC would be lower on a pump gas (91 octane) build?

Efficient yes. The compression ratio was 12:1 when I dyno'd it. The engine at 935 hp used less fuel than it did 7 years before when it made 855hp at 10.8 comp. Same cam different set of heads and a few other parts, but the the added effeceintcy came from the modified chamber my head guy Geoff did.

A few of my other engines have been mid .4's one at .41

She had more left in her, we're going to try to find it in another month or so: The piston wall clearance was greater than 12 thou. 10 year old re-used zero-gap rings and a few other things I band aided together to get her to run that year. She should do much better this time around.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/scan0008-1.jpg

It was rich down low because of the way the carb was responding when it went full throttle.


G-

G-Code
05-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Funny, Thats what i think about nitrous :)


:(

Hey now....... leave my Nos alone ;)

I have never hit the Nos with the kids in the boat and since it will hit 100+ in a matter of seconds with two people my wife doesn't see it either anymore.

G-

Filucky
06-01-2010, 09:20 AM
A freind of mine's 653" BBC, pump gas Big Chief head'd (max ported by yelvi racing heads) 1471 blower, best of everything motor just came off the dyno and made 1237hp. This motor was just freshen'd up and re dynoed but it was originaly built in '99 for the tune of 40k+, so much for blowers making "cheap" hp. It powers his '25 Cat "Cats ***" to over 145mph. :)

rmcomprandy
06-01-2010, 10:46 AM
A freind of mine's 653" BBC, pump gas Big Chief head'd (max ported by yelvi racing heads) 1471 blower, best of everything motor just came off the dyno and made 1237hp. This motor was just freshen'd up and re dynoed but it was originaly built in '99 for the tune of 40k+, so much for blowers making "cheap" hp. It powers his '25 Cat "Cats ***" to over 145mph. :)

You were talking about 900 horsepower 572's but, now it all of a sudden it is about a 653" engine over 1,200 horsepower. The cost is certainly going to be expotentially greater; supercharged or not.

Comparing apples to oranges has NEVER been reality...!

HotRodLincoln
06-01-2010, 12:23 PM
Efficient yes. The compression ratio was 12:1 when I dyno'd it. The engine at 935 hp used less fuel than it did 7 years before when it made 855hp at 10.8 comp. Same cam different set of heads and a few other parts, but the the added effeceintcy came from the modified chamber my head guy Geoff did.

A few of my other engines have been mid .4's one at .41

She had more left in her, we're going to try to find it in another month or so: The piston wall clearance was greater than 12 thou. 10 year old re-used zero-gap rings and a few other things I band aided together to get her to run that year. She should do much better this time around.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/scan0008-1.jpg

It was rich down low because of the way the carb was responding when it went full throttle.


G-

Even more impressive! You'd think numbers like that would come from a fresh, perfectly dialed in combo. Your builder should bottle that thing and patent it ;-).

Filucky
06-01-2010, 02:50 PM
You were talking about 900 horsepower 572's but, now it all of a sudden it is about a 653" engine over 1,200 horsepower. The cost is certainly going to be expotentially greater; supercharged or not.

Comparing apples to oranges has NEVER been reality...!

I was asking if BBC's made more hp then BBF's, it was just a jab at some of the complete BS numbers that come from some of the BBC guys, especialy from the west coast. I just wanted to site an example of what a 653" BBC, Big Chief heads (max ported) toped off with a 1471 blower with dual dominators can do, granted it's alot more hp then 900 but i think it's a good example of what it really takes to make big hp on pump gas. Do i think a BBF can make 900 hp on pump gas? sure, but i don't think it will be a 572 with out of box standard port heads, mild roller cam and a single carb either. At the end of the day i think there are a few big name engine builders that have a "cozy" relationship with certian dyno shops, thats all. :)

Paul Kane
06-01-2010, 03:02 PM
I was asking if BBC's made more hp then BBF's, ...., thats all. :)In reply to your original question:

I seem to see a lot of respectable BBC PEAK numbers in the naturally aspirated builds. A given BBF's peak numbers can be similar but the BBF's curve is usually flatter and broader in power generation, and so if you were to add up the hp numbers/torque numbers of each brand across the engine rpm range, say 3000-7000 for example, then divide by thousands-of-rpm, the averaged power number of the well combo'd Fords usually exceed the same from a well combo'd BBC even if the BBC has a higer peak hp number while the BBF has more usable power. The end result at the racetrack is observing BBF's of a given "peak horsepower" number beating BBCs that often have a higher "peak horsepower" number, all else being the same.

Paul

G-Code
06-01-2010, 03:23 PM
Even more impressive! You'd think numbers like that would come from a fresh, perfectly dialed in combo. Your builder should bottle that thing and patent it ;-).

The time before it was on the dyno she made 855. I calculated all the changes ( new heads, airflow, compression bump and the 1.8 rockers) I had estimated if all was right she would make 920-940 hp. Either a lucky guess or a good one ;)

She did ok considering a single 1050 that was drawing 1.4" of vac at 7,000 rpm.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/P7210836.jpg

This picture is with my C&S Aerisol billet carb as like two other times on a dyno my old modified Barry Grant 9375 1,050 cfm Holley from '91 out performed the C&S carb. I'm hoping my new Pro-Systems 1,200 cfm is worth something.

As far as the BSFC's and efficiency goes, it made more hp (80) and used less fuel than it did before when it made 855 hp. We down jetted the Holley 8 jet sizes and the C&S 9 jet sizes to get the A/F's to 12.25's. We kept pulling jets out and the numbers kept getting better. I wanted to shoot for 12.5's but was advised against it. If I recall the exhaust temps were starting to climb. The old BSFC numbers were .43 with the Holley and .48 with the C&S carb.

G-

Filucky
06-01-2010, 03:32 PM
In reply to your original question:

I seem to see a lot of respectable BBC PEAK numbers in the naturally aspirated builds. A given BBF's peak numbers can be similar but the BBF's curve is usually flatter and broader in power generation, and so if you were to add up the hp numbers/torque numbers of each brand across the engine rpm range, say 3000-7000 for example, then divide by thousands-of-rpm, the averaged power number of the well combo'd Fords usually exceed the same from a well combo'd BBC even if the BBC has a higer peak hp number while the BBF has more usable power. The end result at the racetrack is observing BBF's of a given "peak horsepower" number beating BBCs that often have a higher "peak horsepower" number, all else being the same.

Paul

Agree'd, it seems that BBC's like about 500-1000 more rpm then a BBF in the same build/hp range, and in most case's thats a plus for the BBF, especially in a jetboat. :)

G-Code
06-01-2010, 03:37 PM
Do i think a BBF can make 900 hp on pump gas? sure, but i don't think it will be a 572 with out of box standard port heads, mild roller cam and a single carb either. At the end of the day i think there are a few big name engine builders that have a "cozy" relationship with certian dyno shops, thats all. :)

I get what you're saying but, keep in mind as someone stated "out of the box" heads doesn't mean straight from the factory. Yes it's "out of the box" but who had them first.

You just stated "mild roller cam" I've seen a couple of LSM cam cards, those 55mm cams are far from mild I can guarantee you that. " Mild" is a relative term. ;)

If you want to have this conversation you should post your original question in the Dyno section on Perf Boats. Two guys their have/had the type of engine you are speaking of. They have both switched the engines to race gas and dual carbs; one a 565 the other a 582 both made 1,000 hp on pump gas. And they will readily admit the parts were no where near "out of the box".

G-

Filucky
06-01-2010, 04:43 PM
I get what you're saying but, keep in mind as someone stated "out of the box" heads does mean straight from the factory. Yes it's "out of the box" but who had them first.

You just stated "mild roller cam" I've seen a couple of LSM cam cards, those 55mm cams are far from mild I can guarantee you that. " Mild" is a relative term. ;)

If you want to have this conversation you should post your original question in the Dyno section on Perf Boats. Two guys their have/had the type of engine you are speaking of. They have both switched the engines to race gas and dual carbs; one a 565 the other a 582 both made 1,000 hp on pump gas. And they will readily admit the parts were no where near "out of the box".

G-


Sounds like you SoCal boys got all the secrets figured out, maybe you can throw us a bone now and then so we might have a chance at the big hp too. Hell, i wait all year for you guys to come to Texas so i can see some "real" boats, all we have is the RR class 'till you guys come to town. :)

G-Code
06-01-2010, 05:08 PM
Sounds like you SoCal boys got all the secrets figured out, :)


Well some of them do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boxulo6yKGA

Less than 590" and less than 4.5 seconds of Nos. Yes some of them do have more than a few "secrets". I on the other hand am still trying to figure it out. ;) They don't give their secretes to Ford guys......;)

And yes that was a measured 1/4 mile.

G- Code

Jon

Filucky
06-01-2010, 06:12 PM
Well some of them do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boxulo6yKGA

Less than 590" and less than 4.5 seconds of Nos. Yes some of them do have more than a few "secrets". I on the other hand am still trying to figure it out. ;) They don't give their secretes to Ford guys......;)

And yes that was a measured 1/4 mile.

G- Code

Jon

4.5 sec of nitrous? Maybe on the 2nd or 3rd stage :) What do you think it takes to run a 7.29 in a jetboat? 2000+hp? Sounds like these guys should be giving lessons to Kaase and Sonny.

For fun lets say it takes 2000 hp to run a 7.29 in a jetboat and he has an honest 400hp gain from his n2o setup, that would leave him with a 1600 hp 590" motor that most likely needs to make all that power at not much more then 7000 rpm (before nitrous) thats 2.71 hp per c.i. and i would have to say i've never heard of anything even close to that being done before. So my hat's off to the new King of all motor builders. :)

DaveMcLain
06-01-2010, 06:23 PM
I don't have a lot of experience with them but if you stop and think about it doesn't the BSFC number seem ridiculously low? I mean so so that it's probably not correct? It certainly does to me... Two possible scenarios. 1, fuel flow meter is "pegged" and can't read any more flow, HP is increasing but the fuel used to do so is not.... Or 2, the engine really makes less HP than what the dyno is reading and this also causes the amount of fuel being used per the amount of horsepower shown to read way out of whack/low..... In most cases BSFC numbers are meaningless.

G-Code
06-01-2010, 06:29 PM
4.5 sec of nitrous? Maybe on the 2nd or 3rd stage :) What do you think it takes to run a 7.29 in a jetboat? 2000+hp? Sounds like these guys should be giving lessons to Kaase and Sonny.

For fun lets say it takes 2000 hp to run a 7.29 in a jetboat and he has an honest 400hp gain from his n2o setup, that would leave him with a 1600 hp 590" motor that most likely needs to make all that power at not much more then 7000 rpm (before nitrous) thats 2.71 hp per c.i. and i would have to say i've never heard of anything even close to that being done before. So my hat's off to the new King of all motor builders. :)


It doesn't take 2,000 hp if the boat is efficient. Single stage and less than 4.5 seconds. That boat rocks.

Morgan's (Joe) boat is just about the most efficient jet boat anyone has ever seen. I've seen it run a couple of times....it is truly a thing of beauty; Rolls over, takes a set and never waivers. His boat is nearly the envy of every (sub 8.0) jet boat racer in the nation.

I'll bump the thread about it on the other site if I can find it. Just because YOU haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not possible. Live and learn my friend live and learn. :)

G-

Filucky
06-01-2010, 06:34 PM
All i know is, if it walk's like a duck and quack's like a duck... well it isn't a freak'n dog! :)

G-Code
06-01-2010, 06:40 PM
I don't have a lot of experience with them but if you stop and think about it doesn't the BSFC number seem ridiculously low? I mean so so that it's probably not correct? It certainly does to me... Two possible scenarios. 1, fuel flow meter is "pegged" and can't read any more flow, HP is increasing but the fuel used to do so is not.... Or 2, the engine really makes less HP than what the dyno is reading and this also causes the amount of fuel being used per the amount of horsepower shown to read way out of whack/low..... In most cases BSFC numbers are meaningless.

From my edit:

" As far as the BSFC's and efficiency goes, it made more hp (80) and used less fuel than it did before when it made 855 hp. We down jetted the Holley 8 jet sizes and the C&S 9 jet sizes from where they ran on the engine before the rebuild to get the A/F's to 12.25's. We kept pulling jets out and the numbers kept getting better. I wanted to shoot for 12.5's but was advised against it. If I recall the exhaust temps were starting to climb. The old BSFC numbers were .43 with the Holley and .48 with the C&S carb"

Two days before my engine was on the dyno he pulled off a 600HP Viper V-10 engine he dyno's for some guys that build and install them. The engine two days before had the same numbers as the numerous other engines he dyno'd for them so the fuel meters were accurate. The true telling sign was the amount of fuel we pulled out of the jets.

The engine produced 896 corrected at 6,200 that was 825 observed the guy who builds my jet pump (one of the best in the nation) said it will take an honest 820-825 to spin my impeller 6,200 before I hit the water with it. You want to guess what I was able to spin it? ;)

G-

G-Code
06-01-2010, 06:44 PM
All i know is, if it walk's like a duck and quack's like a duck... well it isn't a freak'n dog! :)

Keep in mind my friend, we all only know so much. Even Bruce Crower doesn't know everything just far far far far far far far far far more than most of us.

I'll bump the thread on the other site. Speaking of the other site; this engine belongs to (Mike F.) Cyclone. It's now a race gas 2 hp/cu. in. 582" with twin dommies.
http://www.sporttruck.com/techarticles/0705st_chevrolet_big_block_engine/index.html

You can ask him about the 900 hp deal. He'll let you know what he thinks.

G- ;)

Filucky
06-01-2010, 07:41 PM
I don't know if i would call a 12:1 motor a 91 octane deal, but whatever. Take out the 5% errer that we pretty much know the Westech dyno had and that gives you 1007 hp @ 7100 rpm. Given the fact that his heads are about the same as a nice set of CNC'd C460's and it is NOT a pump gas motor, it becomes alot more believable. :)

What gas would you put in a 12:1, 25K motor? 91 octane, i doubt it...

Jon, don't take any of this personal, i'm not trying to say any of their motors are junk by any means, i think they (and you) are running top notch stuff. Besides, you know your one of my favorite "liberal" bashers on the boat forums :) :) :)

G-Code
06-01-2010, 08:43 PM
We'll you know, one of the few things I dislike more than Chevys are liberals ;)


Of the two engines that were "pump gas" 1,000 hp deals, Chris (Cs19) quit running pump gas after two years I think. Way way to touchy and he didn't trust the dock fuel. Way to easy to not get "91" and burn a hole in a piston. Cyclone ran his boat on pump gas for quite a few years and neither one of those boats is a "sandbar queen" they not only run them but travel up and down the river quite a few miles from one place to another.

So yes those boats ran 91 octane for a bit, Mike longer than Chris but now neither do. They did it because so many people told them they couldn't. :)

And I think that engine was more than $25K. quite a bit more actually :)

G-

Jon

tiger
06-01-2010, 09:55 PM
I had a chevy guy tell me that those big chief chevy heads were cheaper and produced more power than the new Jon Kaase bbf hemi heads. Sound like a typical chevy guy?

boats2
06-01-2010, 10:06 PM
Now that we've heard a lot of opinions I'll throw out mine. With the factory intake lay out the chevy with 4 good ports and 4 not so good ports is at some what of a disadvantage. The Ford with all good port factory lay out is better but chevy has a better exhaust than Ford. Now throw in REAL high dollar heads and the playing field levels out a lot chevy has more to choose from is a leg up for them but were catching up. Both engines have 400-500 cfm heads available. The Ford block is as strong and lends itself to larger displacement much more readily. Cams especially custom are all over the place, valves are about even. So 1000hp engines are no great trick for either design. How Many dollars fast do you want to go!!

rmcomprandy
06-01-2010, 10:20 PM
I had a chevy guy tell me that those big chief chevy heads were cheaper and produced more power than the new Jon Kaase bbf hemi heads. Sound like a typical chevy guy?

Simply try explain to that Chevy guy, (he won't listen - they never do), that the Kaase Boss 9 head is NOT nor ever meant to be a race head but, a REPLACEMENT style head which has the same port placement as one which actually came on a stock production Ford engine in a production Ford vehicle.

Then ask him what Chevy stock production engine ever came with "Big Chief" style heads ... he'll change the subject because, he has NO legitimate argument.

Diggindeeper
06-01-2010, 10:22 PM
Simply try explain to that Chevy guy, (he won't listen - they never do), that the Kaase Boss 9 head is NOT nor ever meant to be a race head but, a REPLACEMENT style head which has the same port placement as one which actually came on a stock production Ford engine in a production Ford vehicle.

Then ask him what Chevy stock production engine ever came with "Big Chief" style heads ... he'll change the subject because, he has NO legitimate argument.

Randy, i think i have to disagree. Not having a legitimate argument has never stopped any chevy guy i know from arguing :D

DaveMcLain
06-01-2010, 10:31 PM
From my edit:

" As far as the BSFC's and efficiency goes, it made more hp (80) and used less fuel than it did before when it made 855 hp. We down jetted the Holley 8 jet sizes and the C&S 9 jet sizes from where they ran on the engine before the rebuild to get the A/F's to 12.25's. We kept pulling jets out and the numbers kept getting better. I wanted to shoot for 12.5's but was advised against it. If I recall the exhaust temps were starting to climb. The old BSFC numbers were .43 with the Holley and .48 with the C&S carb"

Two days before my engine was on the dyno he pulled off a 600HP Viper V-10 engine he dyno's for some guys that build and install them. The engine two days before had the same numbers as the numerous other engines he dyno'd for them so the fuel meters were accurate. The true telling sign was the amount of fuel we pulled out of the jets.

The engine produced 896 corrected at 6,200 that was 825 observed the guy who builds my jet pump (one of the best in the nation) said it will take an honest 820-825 to spin my impeller 6,200 before I hit the water with it. You want to guess what I was able to spin it? ;)

G-

Not long ago I was working on that jet boat big Chevy engine and with the first set of heads we tested with(much too large) I had to add about 10 jet sizes to my Competition Carburetion built Dominator which is generally very close on most engines. I had to do this to get it to run. Same with a stock Holley Dominator. What was quite interesting was how well a locally modified Dominator worked and that particular carburetor ran AWFUL on any other engine it was ever tested on, very bad but good on this crazy engine. After swapping the heads I still had to up jet my Dominator about 4 sizes to get best power.

After we were done Competition Carburetion built the customer a 3 circuit 1050 with a power valve using what we learned from running my carburetor on the engine and the new carburetor really NAILS it! According to the customer it's so good and so smooth everywhere it's just really amazing. BUT Bob told me that if I had to change the jetting on my dominator by more than a few sizes of jet one way or another it'll work ok but it's NOT optimum. The emulsion is not as good as it can be if the jetting has to be moved really far one way or the other to get the engine to run correctly. So, you might be leaving quite a bit on the table if you had to change either of your carburetors a whole bunch to get the engine lean enough to make best power for whatever reason..

A better carburetor package based on what you've learned on the dyno could be built and it would most likely out run either carburetor by a fair amount.

G-Code
06-01-2010, 10:32 PM
Randy, i think i have to disagree. Not having a legitimate argument has never stopped any chevy guy i know from arguing :D

Chevy guys = Liberals ?

G- ;)

G-Code
06-01-2010, 11:02 PM
A better carburetor package based on what you've learned on the dyno could be built and it would most likely out run either carburetor by a fair amount.

My 2008 Christmas present to myself from Patrick James:


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/Christmas08057.jpg

It runs great on the boat, but hasn't seen the dyno.

1,200 cfm with all his goodies. If nothing else it won't be pulling 1" of vac at 6,000 and 1.4" at 7,000 ;) I plan on taking both to the dyno when I head back it will be interesting to see.

Jon

G-Code
06-02-2010, 03:41 PM
4.5 sec of nitrous? Maybe on the 2nd or 3rd stage :) What do you think it takes to run a 7.29 in a jetboat? 2000+hp? Sounds like these guys should be giving lessons to Kaase and Sonny.

For fun lets say it takes 2000 hp to run a 7.29 in a jetboat and he has an honest 400hp gain from his n2o setup, that would leave him with a 1600 hp 590" motor that most likely needs to make all that power at not much more then 7000 rpm (before nitrous) thats 2.71 hp per c.i. and i would have to say i've never heard of anything even close to that being done before. So my hat's off to the new King of all motor builders. :)

I found out it was six seconds on the Nos, 300 hp shot; Figure the power off the juice is probably around 1,200 or a little bit more. Engine is less than 580":

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/Mogans000.jpg

S CP.

Filucky
06-02-2010, 09:10 PM
I found out it was six seconds on the Nos, 300 hp shot; Figure the power off the juice is probably around 1,200 or a little bit more. Engine is less than 580":


S CP.


That boat must be dialed in just right, Because i know there's jetboats out there with more then 1500hp that don't run nowhere near that fast. :)

big-n-bad
06-03-2010, 06:56 AM
GM's SUCK

2slow
06-03-2010, 12:01 PM
Chevy guys = Liberals ?

G- ;) would'nt say that on YB

danhercules
06-03-2010, 05:07 PM
A 548 BBC built by DNE and dyno'd at westech made 829hp on pump gas, when he put it in his jetboat it only turned 5800rpm, he was running an "A" cut, so that would be about 620hp, long way off from 829hp. He bragged up DNE and Westech all day long right untill he put the motor in his boat and it ran about 80 mph, it was for sale shortly after that. :)

My motor dynoed at 736 at 6200 rpms at Westech. I turned a "A" imp to 6k. That is at the river at 108+ temps. That is right on the money. I now spin a "AA" to 5600 in the same weather. That all adds up. I know I will NEVER see 736 at the river. I see 650 at the RPM and with the temps. That is right in line with my dyno sheet.

Just sayin.

danhercules
06-03-2010, 05:25 PM
It doesn't take 2,000 hp if the boat is efficient. Single stage and less than 4.5 seconds. That boat rocks.

Morgan's (Joe) boat is just about the most efficient jet boat anyone has ever seen. I've seen it run a couple of times....it is truly a thing of beauty; Rolls over, takes a set and never waivers. His boat is nearly the envy of every (sub 8.0) jet boat racer in the nation.

I'll bump the thread about it on the other site if I can find it. Just because YOU haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not possible. Live and learn my friend live and learn. :)

G-

Seen his deck boat? Now thats a boat!!!!

G-Code
06-03-2010, 05:59 PM
Seen his deck boat? Now thats a boat!!!!

Hi Dan,

I thought that was his wife's boat "Here comes Wifey". ;) I've only seen a couple of pictures of it. What is it? ....a 115 mph 21' jet deck boat, or something like that.

As far as "Here comes Whitey" goes, I think it has reset the ET record for it's class twice. ( ?) you can say " it's dialed in"

G-

Jon

Filucky
06-03-2010, 07:25 PM
My motor dynoed at 736 at 6200 rpms at Westech. I turned a "A" imp to 6k. That is at the river at 108+ temps. That is right on the money. I now spin a "AA" to 5600 in the same weather. That all adds up. I know I will NEVER see 736 at the river. I see 650 at the RPM and with the temps. That is right in line with my dyno sheet.

Just sayin.


If your happy with it, i'm happy for ya. :)

danhercules
06-04-2010, 11:56 AM
Hi Dan,

I thought that was his wife's boat "Here comes Wifey". ;) I've only seen a couple of pictures of it. What is it? ....a 115 mph 21' jet deck boat, or something like that.

As far as "Here comes Whitey" goes, I think it has reset the ET record for it's class twice. ( ?) you can say " it's dialed in"

G-

Jon

Your right. Its his wifes. My hull weights about 1700 lbs. (same boat), His is carbon fiber and "heard" it weighed in about 800 lbs. I have 736 hp, he has (again heard) over 1200 hp EFI twin turbo. I know it ran 112. Again, I heard he hit 123. I have seen the thing "FLY", and it does. Nose is way high. Scary. I want that damn boat!!!!!!

danhercules
06-04-2010, 11:58 AM
If your happy with it, i'm happy for ya. :)

I am very happy with it. My boat does 80, but its a tank. 21 Deck. First one Tom Papp built. Its very heavy.