Timing chain install [Archive] - 460 Ford Forum

: Timing chain install


glovemeister
04-30-2011, 11:48 PM
Hey guys, I'm running a stock 84 ford 460 in my F250. I was finishing some other work today and the neighbor and my uncle were there helping me. They have about 30-50 years mechanics experience between them and I have 5. I mentioned I was going to install a double roller timing chain straight up to take away the stock retard. They said that I have no reason to do this, because I will still be running a smogger(stock) cam and my valves aren't going to be opening and closing right? Is this even remotely true? They also said that a 390 or 350 would stomp a 460 any day of the week in anything, so don't know how much they know about a 460 in general.
At some point I will be running headers, to 3 inch duals exiting behind passenger tire also.
I set timing at 0, check to see if its on number 1 cylinder, pull the front, line up crank and cam at 12/16 slap on the chain, put new gaskets on, put the front back on, set timing and go right? Just want to make sure I do it right when I pull it.

crittersf1
04-30-2011, 11:53 PM
Sounds to me like you need not listen to them

White Lightning
05-01-2011, 12:08 AM
Sounds to me like you need not listen to them

LOL, I'll second that.
Rob

crittersf1
05-01-2011, 12:16 AM
"They" don't seem to know much

glovemeister
05-01-2011, 12:23 AM
That is exactly what I tried to tell them but apparently I am a "stupid kid" I about died laughing when they said that a 350 or 390 would out pull, out mpg, and out accelerate, and out top end a 460, stock v stock.

In any case, to do this timing chain swap I pull the #1 plug, bump the engine over to btdc, and 0 on the balancer. Pull the front case off, line up the crank and cam at 12/6 slap on the gears and chain straight up reverse the process. After that I reset my initial timing right? Anything else I should know?

White Lightning
05-01-2011, 12:28 AM
Make sure you replace the crank seal and get enough silicone on the pan corner replacement gasket pieces and the pan end seal corners, change out the oil and filter, DON'T get any gunk in the pan and attain that Chesher Cat grin whilst whopping up on some "tree fittys" and 390's. ;)
Rob

crittersf1
05-01-2011, 12:33 AM
Tell "them" to go get their "tree fitty"

glovemeister
05-01-2011, 12:52 AM
I ordered a new timing cover gasket set, is that what I needed? I am going to rent a harmonic balancer puller also. Is the black rtv recommended for this job?


I am on a mission now to show these two guys that this young kid knows a thing or two with some 460 internet assistance of course. :)

I really enjoy reading everyone's posts, it help to make my day a bit better. After getting my 460 smack talked on all day while I was putting the dash and interior back in it, I was getting pretty pissed because I couldn't show them what my girl can do. With headers, dual exhaust, re-curved distributor, any chance I could take on a dodge ram v10 ;)?

White Lightning
05-01-2011, 04:35 AM
The gasket kit that you want should be called a "timing set kit" .It should have the cover gasket, crank seal, water pump gaskets, pan end seal and the little pan gasket replacements that you'll finish cutting off flush with the block face. You know, I went to an 8 hour seminar a few years ago sponsered by LocTight and the rep said that when it comes to silicone RTV there just all about the same, even the "high temp" ones are not much better than the old standard blue RTV. So, pick a favorite color and have at 'er!
Rob

blueblood
05-01-2011, 10:30 AM
easy timing chain set-up, cam dot at 6/clock,crank dot at 12/clock no messing with advance or retard. with a stock 460 do not go bigger than a 2 1/2 twin exhaust, bigger will lose power

429TORQ
05-01-2011, 11:30 AM
I ordered a new timing cover gasket set, is that what I needed? I am going to rent a harmonic balancer puller also. Is the black rtv recommended for this job?


I am on a mission now to show these two guys that this young kid knows a thing or two with some 460 internet assistance of course. :)

I really enjoy reading everyone's posts, it help to make my day a bit better. After getting my 460 smack talked on all day while I was putting the dash and interior back in it, I was getting pretty pissed because I couldn't show them what my girl can do. With headers, dual exhaust, re-curved distributor, any chance I could take on a dodge ram v10 ;)?

You would walk all over a production Dodge v-10. Triton 6.8 v-10's are stronger. If it's an SRT-10 500 horse v-10 then no, you'll probably need more engine to run with that. The timing change will bring in the torque earlier and the powerband will end sooner. I deal with old-timers like that all the time. One of them is my uncle, Wally Hemminger. He was a well known late model driver in the late 60's and 70's. As close as we are, he wont even look at my 460. If it ain't an FE motor, them old-timers don't like them.

rmcomprandy
05-01-2011, 11:43 AM
I ordered a new timing cover gasket set, is that what I needed? I am going to rent a harmonic balancer puller also. Is the black rtv recommended for this job?


I am on a mission now to show these two guys that this young kid knows a thing or two with some 460 internet assistance of course. :)

I really enjoy reading everyone's posts, it help to make my day a bit better. After getting my 460 smack talked on all day while I was putting the dash and interior back in it, I was getting pretty pissed because I couldn't show them what my girl can do. With headers, dual exhaust, re-curved distributor, any chance I could take on a dodge ram v10 ;)?

You mean these "experienced" guys are helping you and you still had to RENT a dampner puller...? That says volumes about their REAL experience.
Be sure the replacement chain set is not ALSO retarded. The keyway should line up EXACTLY with a tooth of the crank gear; NOT between two teeth.

crittersf1
05-01-2011, 12:08 PM
FE's were the schit in their day

bigblockfairlane
05-01-2011, 11:21 PM
Hey guys u got to remember those yrs motors were shy on hp like 225 hp or so [IMHOP]might just have his hands full with a 350/ 390 both would rap quicker than a 460 also heavier but that could be cured with a gear change. LOL Bill

glovemeister
05-02-2011, 12:05 AM
I am going to run headers, to 2.5 duals out the back exiting with turn downs behind the passenger tire. I am also doing the timing gear, and a distributor recurve. In any case I bet that I would have a chance at beating a 350 or 390.

Any ideas as to how long it would take me to install the chain from tear down to back together? I am going to try and leave the radiator in there, and pull the fan, and wp, and belts and such and see where I am at with it.

crittersf1
05-02-2011, 12:07 AM
With the kind of help you have it may take forever

glovemeister
05-02-2011, 12:15 AM
Hahahah no it will be me doing it. The neighbor may pop over, but I need something to do tomorrow besides throw my interior back in. My uncle and neighbor had a valid point in that I shouldn't spend a whole bunch of money on the motor until I know its good. I pulled the valve covers and the valves ( I think that is what that is?) were damn clean no sludge at all. The oil was good, but old and I changed it anyway. I figure a $40 timing chain isn't a big expenditure for what it yields. I also bought a carb back in January as the old one was beyond shot. I am going to send my distributor off to Scotty to get er recurved. Its not hard to do, but I'd rather not have to tear it apart a bunch of times.

mud.man.rj
05-02-2011, 12:18 AM
So if those old guy's are so smart why are they just standing there yacking watching you work. Sounds like you don't need their help anyway. I know what is with old dudes and FE motors.:D

glovemeister
05-02-2011, 12:32 AM
Well, on occasion they get in there and try and do something just like this story I am going to tell you. I fixed my plug wires the other day, cylinders 1234 pass , 5678 drivers side. I did my distributor correct also. I messed up the 1/8 plugs on the distributor so it was working, but a bit rough. Anyway, trying to time it today and my uncle says "Oh damn, no wonder all these wires are messed up." He proceeds to tell me that the order is "1357, 2468" I said ok and kind of smiled he did it and hooked up to the distributor wouldn't fire. He tried another combination and then finally took a look at my Ford book to see I was right about the cylinders. I about died laughing because I told him way before he did all his switching around business that he was wrong, but I was an "over educated college ****" I like my uncle a lot he just happens to think he knows everything there is to know about every motor, I know thats not true and don't expect him to. It is very aggravating when people think I don't know anything just because I am still "young" lol.

In terms of this timing chain, I need the dot with the keyway right under the dot correct? CLOYES 9-1122 is my set that I ordered. I've heard that 0 is actually the stock retard on the new chains just need to verify.

429TORQ
05-02-2011, 09:04 AM
That is the correct type chain you got coming. It should take about 3-4 hours to install the chain. Might as well drain the coolant and get the radiator out of there, you'll be into coolant removing the pump and timing cover anyway. Watch out for siezed water pump bolts.

zephyrbob
05-02-2011, 09:27 AM
glove, i am a borderline old fart (56) and i am here to tell you that the only thing a 390 is gonna beat is another 390, lol. heck even my stock two barrel 351c could whoop them. of course in 1970 the only thing we new about hot rodding was junkyard stuff pulled from other cars....fwiw. bobn

glovemeister
05-02-2011, 11:28 AM
I appreciate all the responses guys. I woke up about 7 am today, pumped and ready to get this sucker installed whenever UPS shows up today if they do. I'm going to try and get a cam degree kit and a harmonic balancer puller, but should a degree kit not be available what are the chances I can do it without?

fordman59
05-02-2011, 02:50 PM
glove, i am a borderline old fart (56) and i am here to tell you that the only thing a 390 is gonna beat is another 390, lol. heck even my stock two barrel 351c could whoop them. of course in 1970 the only thing we new about hot rodding was junkyard stuff pulled from other cars....fwiw. bobn

Hey Bob, yes stock vs stock, most 390s weren't much. But check this out! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDhHIMPpXTI. From the FE forum: TomP's words.
Engine specifics, most has been posted
April 24 2011, 9:47 PM

at some point before but as it turns out, this isn't rocket science. The block crank and rods are stock 390 that were donated for a project several years ago by Fordman. Pistons are a used set of TRW 12.5's. Heads have been upgraded to mildly (but correctly) ported Edelbrocks done by XR7 specifically for what we wanted to do. No killer flow numbers here. No jumbo super over size valves, just stock CJ size once again done right. The intake is a stock B/T Medium Riser with a pair of 600 vac carbs. Cam is a 1970's Crane solid out of my 427//454 and is .595/604 and 260/270 duration. Headers are Hooker, 2 1/8th. Roller rockers, unilite etc that help it run but don't make HP.

Things of note.. This engine is perfectly streetable as is if you want to buy fuel for the compression. I ran this cam and similar intake/carb, piston setup in my 454 for years. Ways to go faster that I won't do.. Newer style cam, smaller tube headers, get rid of the stock style water pump, fan and alternator, get a lightweight rad and start putting fiberglass body parts on the car. Things I will do to go faster is carb adjustments, and try improve my driving. I'm inconsistant as hell when it comes to leaving right and hitting the shift points on time and that can really kill a good run. Too many people get caught up in numbers whether it be HP or flow bench or imaginary lines drawn on a graph. Us poor guys just build what we can with what we have. ET and MPH is all I care about.

Granted, this is a race car. But 390s can run!
To the O.P. You might get by just slapping it on, but with today's quality problems, I would recommend to degree it (good learning experience!). So far, I haven't seen many problems from that chain but ya never know!

glovemeister
05-02-2011, 02:59 PM
Hey guys I stopped by oreillys today and need to figure out what to rent. A harmonic puller harmonic installer and timing chain puller right? I've never tore into an engine this much before but I am excited to learn. Also can I do this with the radiator in the truck just pull the fan and surround?

White Lightning
05-02-2011, 03:22 PM
You won't need a timing chain puller, the crank gear will slide right off.
Drain the radiator, pull the 4 bolts on the shroud, lay it over the fan/waterpump, pull the hoses off from the block, pull the 4 bolts on the radiator, lift it out, remove the shroud, leave the fan on the pump, take the belt off, remove the pump/fan assy., remove the fuel pump, pull #1 plug and rotate the engine untill you get compression coming out of the hole, line up the timing marks to 0, remove the the balancer and spacer, pull the cover, verify that the timing marks on the chain assy. are lined up, remove the cam bolt, remove the timing assy, reverse the process for assembly. Replace the waterpump bypass hose. Inspect and/or replace the belt(s). Replace the coolant with a 50/50 mix. Change oil and filter. Don't over torque the bolts. Hope this helps.
Rob

glovemeister
05-02-2011, 03:28 PM
Rob I really appreciate your help bud. Ever get out to oregon you have free adult beverages. =) going to give this a shot tomorrow.

fordman59
05-02-2011, 03:45 PM
Just want to add, maybe a bit of Loctite on the cam bolt.

White Lightning
05-02-2011, 03:48 PM
LOL, I used to have a speed shop in Albany, Called "Big Boys Toys". I just might take you up on the adult beverage.........BTW....I'm a Glenn Livet man. ;)
Rob

glovemeister
05-02-2011, 10:41 PM
No way? That is way cool WL, I lived in Corvallis for about 6 months when I went to college there. I decided I didn't like the city and moved home. No idea what that is, I figure its mighty good stuff a man of your ability and prowess, whatever you drink its free on me! I am going to give this a shot tomorrow, I figure I will pull everything and wait on the UPS man. Just a quick question about the Cloyes timing chain, 9-1122 I think is the part number. I want the dot that is directly in line with the keyway, as the square is like it was, the triangle is advanced 8 degrees right?

Brad Johnson
05-02-2011, 11:42 PM
FE's were the schit in their day

pffft... Sissy pansy! A REAL Ford man runs a Y-block.

Brad

crittersf1
05-03-2011, 04:00 AM
pffft... Sissy pansy! A REAL Ford man runs a Y-block.

Brad

Have a 312 and some Flatheads

White Lightning
05-03-2011, 04:06 AM
pffft... Sissy pansy! A REAL Ford man runs a Y-block.

Brad

ROFLMAO! Here we go...next will be the flat headed 6 finatics who will chime in..... lol
Rob

White Lightning
05-03-2011, 04:09 AM
No way? That is way cool WL, I lived in Corvallis for about 6 months when I went to college there. I decided I didn't like the city and moved home. No idea what that is, I figure its mighty good stuff a man of your ability and prowess, whatever you drink its free on me! I am going to give this a shot tomorrow, I figure I will pull everything and wait on the UPS man. Just a quick question about the Cloyes timing chain, 9-1122 I think is the part number. I want the dot that is directly in line with the keyway, as the square is like it was, the triangle is advanced 8 degrees right?

It's been so long since I've put a multiple keyway set in I can honestly say that I don't remember. The timing set should come with destructions...lol So where's home....Sweet Home? Kinda' "non city" there.
Rob

glovemeister
05-03-2011, 07:00 PM
Guys I need help quick! I got the balancer off and everything. I almost got the timing cover off but there is a piece holding the timing cover on. I can't figure out what it is and how I remove it. Its like a 1/4 circle type of deal. It may be a woodruff key or something please help. I got it tore apart and I need to get this chain in there.

glovemeister
05-07-2011, 12:22 AM
Got it done a few days ago. I need to readjust the timing and the carb as it starts up great and runs superb, if I keep the gas to it, but as soon as I let off the throttle it bogs down and dies. I am pretty sure it was on the compression stroke and I rotated it to zero on the balancer, which I painted to prevent future timing issues. :)

glovemeister
05-07-2011, 12:22 AM
It's been so long since I've put a multiple keyway set in I can honestly say that I don't remember. The timing set should come with destructions...lol So where's home....Sweet Home? Kinda' "non city" there.
Rob

Actually no Eastern Oregon.

glovemeister
05-07-2011, 12:23 AM
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq253/glover2010/IMG_20110423_135023.jpg

heres a mid project pic of my baby. More complete than this now, but its the only pic I had on hand.

Deerediesel
07-11-2011, 10:26 PM
Hows your project coming?