F350 460 efi tow build help please [Archive] - 460 Ford Forum

: F350 460 efi tow build help please


torinojoe1971
04-25-2012, 09:52 PM
All right I have a 95 f350 crew cab dually 4x4. What came in it was a 351w in it sd efi,e4od trans, motor was bad so I retrofitted a 73 351cj into the truck runs awsome but rpms for towing is not right and gets 7mpg no matter what. So Ive seen some builds claiming with 460 efi getting 12 city 15 to 17 highway, If this is true I figure I'm going with a 460 with more stump pulling, this will be a daily driver towing my race trailer. I'm looking to get good towing power with the best fuel milage for a pig of a truck that I can. I need a proven build if possible, what i have is a 89 460 with 38000 orig miles out of a camper,f3te fuelly heads intake and all accessery pulleys and brackets, heads need rebuild, what cam should I use, will the stock cam in the 89 engine work with efi? I also have a 71 429 30 over flat top trw slugs, cj rods with arp bolts molly rings fresh rebuild. So would the 429 with the fuelly heads and efi intake 24lb injecters or the 89 460 stock motor with all the efi set up? I will still be using e4od swapping the case for bbf. Any info would be appreciated thanks Joe.

Zac
04-26-2012, 09:25 AM
Use the 460. The extra stroke of the 460's crank (versus the 429) is what you want and will better suit making low rpm power.


I would search boneyards for a wrecked '96 or '97 and get the engine harness, ECU, mass air sensor and sundry parts (MAP sensor, etc.) out of said truck. The '96-'97 trucks and vans with 460s in them had a mass air system in them instead of the speed density setup on your '95. A mass-air system allows more modifications without throwing as many fits as a speed density setup.

There are numerous bolt-ons you could do to that stock '89 longblock (in addition to switching to a mass-air system) that will net decent gains in efficiency and power.

If you're so inclined, while it's out of the truck and you have access to such, some port work on the cylinder heads (bowl work on both sides, knocking down the thermactor bump on the exhaust side and port matching the intake runners to the intake manifold and vice-versa) and port work on the lower intake manifold will help out a good bit and help out with other mods (i.e. headers, etc.).

rmcomprandy
04-26-2012, 10:48 AM
All right I have a 95 f350 crew cab dually 4x4. What came in it was a 351w in it sd efi,e4od trans, motor was bad so I retrofitted a 73 351cj into the truck runs awsome but rpms for towing is not right and gets 7mpg no matter what. So Ive seen some builds claiming with 460 efi getting 12 city 15 to 17 highway, If this is true I figure I'm going with a 460 with more stump pulling, this will be a daily driver towing my race trailer. I'm looking to get good towing power with the best fuel milage for a pig of a truck that I can. I need a proven build if possible, what i have is a 89 460 with 38000 orig miles out of a camper,f3te fuelly heads intake and all accessery pulleys and brackets, heads need rebuild, what cam should I use, will the stock cam in the 89 engine work with efi? I also have a 71 429 30 over flat top trw slugs, cj rods with arp bolts molly rings fresh rebuild. So would the 429 with the fuelly heads and efi intake 24lb injecters or the 89 460 stock motor with all the efi set up? I will still be using e4od swapping the case for bbf. Any info would be appreciated thanks Joe.

An 89 engine IS a fuelly engine.
When you have the heads re-done, if you can, use the earlier E7TE heads and have 2.083" or a 2.110" intake valves installed with a good valve job, zero deck the block and keep the compression ratio UNDER 9.5/1 or you will need premium gasoline when towing, port the stock fuelly intake manifold and use a Lunati "Specialty cam" #06169.

EDIT: The rest of what you need are bolt-ons.

torinojoe1971
04-26-2012, 11:03 AM
I agree with you but I think I will have the heads milled 30 instead the 460 is low miles and do not have the time to pull the engine apart to have it milled. Will that cam work with the sd and yeild the mpg I'm looking for? And how much would you charge to redo the heads for me? I'm wondering will mass air help with mpg or not I've heard mixed revues weather it yields any increase in mpg Joe.

rmcomprandy
04-26-2012, 11:10 AM
I agree with you but I think I will have the heads milled 30 instead the 460 is low miles and do not have the time to pull the engine apart to have it milled. Will that cam work with the sd and yeild the mpg I'm looking for? And how much would you charge to redo the heads for me? I'm wondering will mass air help with mpg or not I've heard mixed revues weather it yields any increase in mpg Joe.

A 434, (+.030" 429), at 9.5/1 compression ratio may be OK. I haven't actually done a combination like that. The Lunati cam is the best "off the shelf" camshaft, towing or not, I have tried in any 460 FUELLY engine with an OEM computor. I imagine it would also be fine in an engine with a shorter stroke.

"There is never enough time to do it right ... but, there is always enough time to do it again", Ban Franklin

torinojoe1971
04-26-2012, 11:29 AM
So you would do the 429 instead of the 460? And price on the heads please. Can you explain why decking the block instead the heads will gain any real gains on a daily driver tow rig? The 429 pistons already come out the bore slightly, I know with 75cc heads comp is 11.3.1 what would it be with the fuelly heads thanks Joe.

rmcomprandy
04-26-2012, 11:36 AM
So you would do the 429 instead of the 460? And price on the heads please. Can you explain why decking the block instead the heads will gain any real gains on a daily driver tow rig? The 429 pistons already come out the bore slightly, I know with 75cc heads comp is 11.3.1 what would it be with the fuelly heads thanks Joe.

NO ... I would do the 460 the right way but, you don't want to do that for whatever reasoning you have.
The 429 COULD be a substitute.

Heads, (unless they a new out of the box), will need to be individually evaluated for any truthful recondition pricing.

torinojoe1971
04-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Randy come on, I asked a simple question what is the diffrence between decking the block or the heads, this is not a race engine, Your response NO instead explaining the diffrence is out line. This is why I did not have you do any work for me before maybe if your attitude changed you might get a little more work. Thanks for your input but for here on out don't respond to any of my post if you choose to have an attitude, Thanks Joe.

rmcomprandy
04-26-2012, 12:36 PM
Randy come on, I asked a simple question what is the diffrence between decking the block or the heads, this is not a race engine, Your response NO instead explaining the diffrence is out line. This is why I did not have you do any work for me before maybe if your attitude changed you might get a little more work. Thanks for your input but for here on out don't respond to any of my post if you choose to have an attitude, Thanks Joe.


Attitude...?
I said NO to the QUESTION you asked in your last post. ("So you would do the 429 instead of the 460?") You must have been hearing words which I did NOT say so, I was telling you the truth in the shortest and nicest possible way and you construe that as showing an "attitude".

There is a lot more difference here than "deck or head milling".

Zac
04-26-2012, 12:42 PM
If you're talking a one-or-the-other scenario, in a perfect world there wouldn't be an appreciable difference.

However, in general there can be/is quite a bit of variance in chamber volume from one cylinder to the other in different castings of cylinder heads. I suppose the same holds true for piston-to-deck height clearances, but generally speaking decking and squaring the block will result in a fairly consistent tolerance/clearance value. Generally speaking. If you have a cylinder head that varies across all 4 chambers something to the tune of 2-3ccs, simply cutting the head .020" or .030" may not address the chamber variances at all. Combined with possible piston-to-deck variations on a production shortblock...

Anyhow, I'd build the 460 shortblock or longblock you have. I'd port the lower intake to the heads (either the castings you have or an earlier set of fuelie heads...E7s...with the valves Randy referenced installed) and perform some perfunctory/light port work on both sides of the heads...mainly focusing on bowl cleanups (particularly after installation of larger valves) and cleaning up the exhaust side. Bolt-ons (headers, roller rockers, a good exhaust with a high-flow catalytic converter, adjustable fuel pressure regulator on 24 lb/hr or 30 lb/hr injectors), experimenting with timing, etc., and trying to find a mass-air setup out of a '96 or '97 truck are the easiest mods.

The '96-'97 mass-air setups are worth it. The speed density system was a batch-fire and this is why the fuel injected 302s, 351s and 460s in those trucks never delivered an appreciable increase in efficiency nor power (versus, say, a carbureted version of the same thing produced in the mid '80s) as the fuel tended to start falling out of atomization because an entire bank of injectors all fired at the same time, whether the particular intake valve each was injecting fuel at was opening or not. The '96-'97 mass-air setups are sequential - sending fuel into the intake port only when that intake valve is about to open.

The mass-air setups are going to be more "friendly" to future modifications, as well.

torinojoe1971
04-26-2012, 12:58 PM
Thank you zac for the explaination, 460 then mass air set up. Randy read the hole post, maybe its me, if so then I am sorry for my response thank you for all your input Joe.

RLS7201
04-26-2012, 05:01 PM
Thank you zac for the explaination, 460 then mass air set up. Randy read the hole post, maybe its me, if so then I am sorry for my response thank you for all your input Joe.

Am I mis-informed or was the mass air 460 rare as hens teeth? I thought it was only marketed in CA, Denver and maybe one of the NE states in 96 & 97?

Richard

97puller
04-26-2012, 05:14 PM
Am I mis-informed or was the mass air 460 rare as hens teeth? I thought it was only marketed in CA, Denver and maybe one of the NE states in 96 & 97?

Richard

yes mass air was only in a few areas with stricter polution laws. my 97 does not have mass air.

mjp_t98
04-26-2012, 06:27 PM
yes mass air was only in a few areas with stricter polution laws. my 97 does not have mass air.Agreed. California, where a few still exist, and I believe NY, although I'm not sure many sold there. The OP will also need an E4OD solenoid pack that matches the ECU.

97puller
04-26-2012, 06:52 PM
here is some good info for efi 460 mods:

http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156805

Zac
04-26-2012, 07:03 PM
A good friend of mine in southwest Iowa has a '97 crew cab, single rear wheel 4wd F350 with a mass-aired 460. He was not the original purchaser/owner of the truck.


I've worked on a '96 F250 in Georgia that was a mass-air'ed truck.



Perhaps the mass-air trucks are more prevalent in California, but they can be found. I was not aware that Ford put mass-air'ed trucks in certain markets. I thought that was an old wives tail. It seems that would be quite cost-prohibitive to have trucks with completely different electronics/ECUs and harnesses for the same basic powertrain rolling off the assembly line. Stranger things have happened, I suppose.

mjp_t98
04-26-2012, 10:08 PM
You can go check the VECI labels on Motorcraft.com and see for yourself.

DoctorD
04-27-2012, 12:13 AM
I just finished a 460 build in a 93 F350 w/30 over block, aftermarket F3 iron cast heads ported, Comp cams 342314 extreeme 4X4 and minor exhaust mods. No surprise to me the stock SD system doesn't like what I did so I am having this custom MAF system built and expect to complete the install within a week and if your interested in the results look me up. Here's a link to the MAF people I'm using.


http://www.mass-air.com/Products.htm

DrD

torinojoe1971
04-27-2012, 12:20 AM
yes thank you very interested in the results Joe

The Mad Porter
04-27-2012, 01:41 PM
The fuelie castings have a damned good exhaust port in OEM form. DO NOT confuse them with the earlier carb castings which have exhaust issues. You will see the greatest benefits from working the intake side as well and using a slightly larger 2.11" intake valve.

The link to a thread with information on how to make these combos run has my as well as others' suggestions with regard to a well running EFI combo with the stock ecm.


If you want to tow 460 inches all the way !!!

I have never seen an EFI 460 truck do better than about 13 MPG so take that for what its worth.


S

torinojoe1971
04-28-2012, 11:37 AM
13 is hole lot better than 7mpg with the 351cj efi, scott is that with sd or mass air thanks Joe.

97puller
04-28-2012, 02:25 PM
The best tank i ever got with my '97 non mass air was 13 mpg. That only happened once, it usually gets about 10 mpg.

Are you running the 351 c with the factory EFI system? If so did you have a custom tune done?

torinojoe1971
04-28-2012, 03:50 PM
Yes 351c with factory efi, I'm working on getting it tuned you know anyone?

97puller
04-28-2012, 04:32 PM
no i don't, but it can be done with a Quarter horse or tweecer tuning sysem or maybe an aftermarket computer like a megasquirt or something. Try aking some questions on EECtuning.org to learn about them.
The factory EFI doesn't like any major changes especially the speed density sytems. Different heads and or cam will mess up the tune and cause the poor mileage you are getting now.

I am going to try the SDS computer from western motorsports on my 460 so i can tune it easily when i do some mods.

torinojoe1971
04-28-2012, 06:41 PM
ok thanks