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Blue Thunder "B" Heads - Flow Development Stages
December 21 2003 at 9:23 PM
No score for this post Charlie Evans (Login c.evans)
from IP address 205.188.209.73
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Guys,
I thought I'd post the stages of development that Lem and I went through on a set of Blue Thunder heads that we did for a friend of ours. He's using these heads on a pump gas engine. We did 'em last year.
The "B" heads are the ones with the Chevy style exhaust port, and as most of you know, it is a stock CobraJet style intake port. The valve sizes were 2.300" on the intake and 1.820" on the exhaust. All flow numbers are from our SuperFlow SFC 600 bench and are on a 4.625" bore and are @ 28" H2O. This data may be beneficial for some of you guys and Scott J. if you want to include them on your web site, for informational purposes you may. I'm not bragging or saying these are the best out there, because I'm sure they are not. I will say they are very good numbers and that they are good heads. These are an average of all 8 ports, with the decimels rounded off to the nearest whole number.
1. Out of the box - Unported - with a valve job.
Intake; .100=67,.200=129, .300=188, .400=251, .500=301, .600=322, .700=331, .750=335 total=1924
Exhaust .100=60,.200=114, .300=148, .400=176, .500=194,
.600=207, .700=215, .750=219 total=1333
2. "Super" Bowl Work/Blending
Intake; .100=71,.200=150, .300=209, .400=273, .500=329, .600=340, .700=343, .750=346 total=2061
Exhaust .100=61,.200=118, .300=158, .400=188, .500=213, .600=237, .700=258, .750=266 total=1499
3. Fully Ported Street/Strip
Intake; .100=72,.200=148, .300=213, .400=277, .500=331, .600=351, .700=356, .750=359 total=2107
Exhaust .100=67,.200=122, .300=163, .400=191, .500=215, .600=241, .700=265, .750=276 total=1540
4. Fully Race Ported. This past month we re-worked them again and Lem and I flowed them this morning.
Intake; .100=73,.200=152, .300=216, .400=281, .500=335, .600=363, .700=377, 750=380 total=2176
Exhaust .100=67,.200=122, .300=163, .400=198, .500=227. .600=251, .700=271, .750=280 total=1579
I hope this info is beneficial. Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 152.163.252.232 on Jan 14, 2004 2:04 AM
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 205.188.209.73 on Dec 21, 2003 9:27 PM
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Author Reply
Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
205.188.209.73 Dyno Results From These Heads
No score for this post January 14 2004, 10:24 PM
Hey Guys,
We've got some good dyno results from the heads that I gave you flow numbers on in the above post. Bob sent some pictures also and I'll see if we can get them up.
The engine is a pump gas 572 CID and with a flat tappet cam and a single 4 barrel we got 718 lbs.ft. @ 4900 rpm and 743 Hp @ 6100 rpm.
With a tunnel ram and 2 X 4 we got 746 lbs.ft. @ 4900 rpm and 779 Hp @ 6300 rpm.
Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 64.12.96.200 on Jan 15, 2004 9:23 PM
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
205.188.209.73 Burp # 2
No score for this post January 14 2004, 10:34 PM
n/m
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 205.188.209.73 on Jan 14, 2004 10:51 PM
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 205.188.209.73 on Jan 14, 2004 10:50 PM
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chilly460
(Premier Login chilly460)
Forum Owner
168.73.245.58 Some pics from Charlie!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 9:54 AM
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waterslinger
(Login waterslinger)
192.91.172.36 Re: Some pics from Charlie!!
No score for this post September 9 2005, 9:41 AM
My TFS intake has a standard 460 water neck. In the pic your intake takes a
small block set up. Why did TFS change it?
438ci Big Block, Powerglide 6400 stall, 9" rearend 4.56 gear, 4-Link suspension,
1/8 mile 6.11@113mph on motor
http://www.geocities.com/ryan98gt/fordzilla
http://www.geocities.com/waterslinger1
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.116.130 Answer For Waterslinger
No score for this post September 9 2005, 11:13 AM
I'm pretty sure you are talking about the second picture down. That's the new style TFS single plane manifold that is currently on the market.
A little history is in order. When TFS made the old style tunnel ram manifold (that we call the John C. Holmes manifold), it's water neck was traditional BBF and the thermo housing surface was horizontal,, , , there were no clearance problems with the distributor caps because the runners were so long. As a sidenote the single plane manifold that carried either the TFS logo or Ford Motorsport logo had a horizontal mounting surface for the water neck also.
Then TFS redesigned the tunnel ram and made the runners shorter and the plenum bigger. This is current tunnel ram that they have on the market. With the shorter runners we had major clearance problems with the distributor cap. So the only distributor anybody could run was the MSD crank trigger or the Mallory Pro crank trigger. Because of the bigger Pro Style cap diameter with these crank triggers, there were clearance issues over there around the water neck/ thermo housing area and it was resolved by rotating things from a horizontal mounting surface to a vertical mounting surface. Thus using the SBF style housing.
Later on then, when TFS totally redesigned the single plane intake into the one in the second picture, they just continued that design feature.
I hope that helps,
Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 64.12.116.130 on Sep 9, 2005 11:15 AM
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Lem Evans
(Login l-evans7)
69.166.129.47 Old style TFS TR manifolds .
No score for this post September 9 2005, 6:40 PM
There were two , the "holmes" and a unit that the runners were shorter than the new style manifold....damn near looked like a blower manifold the runners were so short .
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Brian
(Login blownufo)
199.64.0.252 572 Destroyer
No score for this post September 8 2005, 2:00 PM
I think this would be a great crate motor to develop for that 572 Destroyer engine program you guys have been talk about.
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 You All Need To Look At This !!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:08 PM
Hey Guys,
IMO this is some of the best information we've put up on the forum. I'm surprised you all aren't tripping all over it. I've given you flow numbers on Blue Thunder heads and then I've given you dyno numbers from the 572 CID Pump Gas engine they were used on. Back to back numbers between a 1X4 single plane and a 2X4 tunnel ram. We've got pictures of the engine on the dyno and then in a boat. Sorry that it's taking a long time to load, but just bear with it.
The engine made over well over 700 lbs.ft. of torque from the start of the pulls which was 4800 rpm through 5700 rpm, and then was still making 649 lbs. at 6300. We didn't necessarily build it seeking peak horsepower numbers, but we tried to build a "safe" torque monster that can run all day. We believe we succeeded in doing that. Questions or comments?
Charlie
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jeff hann
(no login)
205.188.209.73 AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:38 PM
It looks like you guys have been working your butts off. You better put some wings on that boat, because it looks like its gonna fly away. Thanks for the flow numbers, I've been looking at aluminum heads and comparing all the numbers I can get my grubby mitts on.
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Brow
(Login Brow)
203.221.68.14 WOW!!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:47 PM
I think this an awesome combo. Would this engine combo work as well in a drag car as it will in the boat?
Would the cam be compatible with a bracket car?
What are the details of the combo? I have a set of B heads very similar to your street/strip combo (currently damaged from a piston to valve mishap that took out most of the bottom end) and will be putting together a stroker one day when I can afford it. I like the combo you have put together, not too many revs so it will last.
I will be repairing the heads and getting them ported to race specs.
I would ask you to do them but I live in Australia and it will cost too much to send them over. I have guys picked out over here who have done some impressive things with Trick Flow small block heads ( they even impressed the factory guys)
Thanks
Brow
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LeRoy
(no login)
206.97.63.178 Awesome!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:50 PM
Great info, awesome job! Looks like you have a happy boat owner! nice flow numbers... and dyno numbers too!
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Dave M
(Login 9sec_torino)
209.83.88.112 good info, thanks!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 9:10 PM
I have been thinking over what you guys accomplished. Not too shabby! I would love to put that in my daily driver The pics are cool.
Flowed my unported "B" heads and #'s were nearly identical to your stage one. Will be getting mine back in a few weeks and hope they mirror your stage four. I was told maybe more.
My BT's will be used in a drag race N2O, 525", hi compression, single carb engine. I'm really hoping it will make 900+ N/A. The further I get into this build the more concerned I am it won't make the power. If I need to put the pipe down and start saving for a bigger N2O kit, let me know.
Seriously though, I hope you won't mind some questions when it gets to that point.
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madmudder
(no login)
24.162.95.220 I'm Impressed
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:43 PM
Hey Charlie I wish I knew a little more about flow numbers. I do know about torque,horsepower and pictures and ya'll have me so stirred up I'm going to the back to find my girlfriend. (good job) Mac
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.96.200 Engine Data
No score for this post January 15 2004, 9:43 PM
The cam was 270* - 278* @ .050" The lobe seperation angle was 110* and it had a ground in 4* advance. So the intake lobe centerline was 106* and the exhaust was 114*. In open 29*, In close 67*, Ex open 73*, Ex close 25*. Lobe lift was .400" so it was .692" gross at the valve.
The compression ratio was a "safe" 10.25 : 1 with JE dished pistons on a 6.800" long Eagle rod. Bore was 4.605" and stroke was 4.300" using a cast steel Scat crank. Milodon pan and windage tray with just an external belt driven oil pump,(not a dry sump). Timing was at 37 - 38*
We could have upped the compression ratio some and certainly made more power, but we really wanted to keep it safe for pis poor pump gas that came from Poldunk Hollow.
The single plane Victor SVO manifold had an 1150 cfm Dominator on it and the tunnel ram is one that Jet Boat Bob made himself. It had a pair of Quick Fuel reworked 1050 Dominators on it.
Yes, it would "work" in a drag car and be a safe dependable engine. There at one time the timing got accidentally bumped up to 46* and the engine never pinged during a pull. (Always bring a spare timing light to your dyno sessions, so when you're high dollar light goes bad, you'll have a spare!)
Charlie
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Brow
(Login Brow)
203.221.64.227 Thanks
No score for this post January 15 2004, 11:21 PM
I was thinking of upping the compression to about 13:1 and converting over to alcohol with my Pro Systems 1170. I have a Victor ported to the heads and custom headers.
How would that go with the rest of your combo? I really do like keeping the revs down so it will have a long life. I don't mind spending some money to get the right parts. What block did you use?
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 Answers To Questions
No score for this post January 16 2004, 12:32 AM
Brow,
We used a Ford A-460 block. That will accept the big bore of 4.605".
As for how would your upgrade plans "fit" with the rest of our combo? Okay - BUT - you'll be exceeding the 850 Hp limit of the Scat cast steel(9000) crank. Therefore you'll need to upgrade the crankshaft to be able to safely handle the horsepower upgrades such as compression & etc. You will need a good forged crank or a billet for your intended application.
Charlie
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Brow
(Login Brow)
203.194.40.147 Thanks again
No score for this post January 16 2004, 1:42 AM
Thanks again Charlie,
I don't know when I will be doing the rebuild - I just moved state and my little boy is just turning 1 with another kid in the near future plans as well as a new house etc.
I look forward to a similar combo to what you have built, but will have to up the budget a bit to include better block and crank.
I will keep up with the info on this forum so I can build the best I can afford.
Brow
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BZstang
(Login BZstang)
152.163.252.232 NICE JOB
No score for this post January 16 2004, 8:12 AM
Charlie. I didn't see it or i missed it you are running a shorter stroke crank than 4.5. If so i would of thought the HP numbers would of come in at a little higher rpm?. Or is it because the cam is 4 degrees advance?. Or is it that T-ram with its long runners?. Anyway great job that is some pretty impressive picture's you have there good luck.BZ
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Rich L
(no login)
151.203.41.131 Re. Good Job
No score for this post January 16 2004, 8:29 AM
Hey Bob get OFF the Blabbing and call me.Tubular Automotive called . They'r bending 2 1/4 pipes next week and they want you'r car NOW!! Latest Monday.If you can't get the heads on in time I'll do it. Call me Rich L
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
205.188.209.73 Horsepower and RPM
No score for this post January 16 2004, 12:06 PM
Bobby,
Good questions. Yes we are running a 4.300" stroke crankshaft with this pump gas deal.
Pull # 10 gave the following results with pump gas and 36.5* timing.
I'm just giving the upper numbers;
5600 = 755 Hp
5700 = 758
5800 = 764
5900 = 771
6000 = 773
6100 = 770
6200 = 776
6300 = 779
6400 = 774
6500 = 772
6500 rpm was where we stopped the pulls. Last thing we did was throw some Torco 116 race gas in it. As Phillip said this was the wrong application, meaning 110 would have been good enough, but here are the results with the timing bumped to 38.5*
5600 = 750 Hp
5700 = 759
5800 = 765
5900 = 771
6000 = 771
6100 = 773
6200 = 778
6300 = 780
6400 = 781
6500 = 781
So we see the engine peaked out just a little bit higher as you thought it might Bobby. Remember our objective was to build a safe pump gas engine that would be good for riding around and drinking beer and eating fried chicken. This engine has dished JE pistons and one thing Lem said was that; "This engine is just a set of flat tops and a roller cam way from being a good race engine!" True statement.
Charlie
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Doug Rahn
(no login)
152.163.252.232 Very impressive Charlie.
No score for this post January 16 2004, 1:37 PM
Is that your shop? It looks like it's loaded with lots of goodies.
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lem evans
(no login)
12.148.40.83 Re: Very impressive Charlie.
No score for this post January 16 2004, 3:37 PM
That Charlie sure is impressive isn't he!
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Doug Rahn
(no login)
64.12.96.200 Sorry Lem.
No score for this post January 17 2004, 5:57 AM
I didn't mean to leave you out of the mix. Your just as impressive as Charlie!
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 Thanks, but thats not my point..
No score for this post January 17 2004, 10:17 AM
Just liked the sound of "impressive Charlie" !
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 Sorry Doug.
No score for this post January 17 2004, 10:21 AM
I meant "Very impressive Charlie". That would be a great login name for Charlie!
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Doug Rahn
(no login)
205.188.209.73 That's a good one Lem! lol
No score for this post January 17 2004, 12:54 PM
Did you hear that Charlie?
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 Lem Is Just A Parts Delivery Boy !!
No score for this post January 18 2004, 10:48 PM
Doug,
I hear ya'! I'm sorry but Phillip O. and I were at the NHRA Div 3 Awards Banquet this past weekend at Indy, so I've been gone for a few days.
I'm also sorry that Lem was "tripping" about the very impressive Charlie stuff. I don't know what I do to deserve all the abuse that Lem gives me. He always embarrasses all of us, that's one reason we left him at home this weekend and didn't let him rub elbows with the sponsors at Indy.
To answer your question that's Bob Hardison's well equiped garage, complete with bathroom, washer, dryer kitchen, stocked refrigerator, TV, stereo and etc. Then the good stuff is about 4 welders, a Bridgeport, lathe, grinders and etc. Bob, Lawes, Phillip and myself do all the work, in fact if the truth be known, we just use Lem as the parts delivery boy! Heh-he!
Charlie
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 Very impressive , Very impressive Charlie.
No score for this post January 19 2004, 9:34 AM
n/m
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Sam Lam
(no login)
64.40.92.134 Octane
No score for this post January 16 2004, 4:43 PM
What Octane was the Pump gas , do you tink that the 110 would give more HP than the 116
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 92 pump octane and yes. n/m
No score for this post January 16 2004, 8:45 PM
n/m
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Sam Lam
(no login)
64.40.92.134 What is the cut off
No score for this post January 19 2004, 10:12 AM
At what compression would you go to the 116
Or may be what is the most compression would run on the 110
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Sam Lam
(no login)
64.40.92.134 What is the cut off
No score for this post January 19 2004, 10:21 AM
At what compression would you go to the 116
Or may be what is the most compression would run on the 110
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lem evans
(no login)
12.148.40.83 Re: What is the cut off
No score for this post January 19 2004, 11:11 AM
Torco 110 is good for 13/13.5 easy enough.
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MY514Mach1
(no login)
152.163.252.135 Here's some more BLUE THUNDER info (FORD EX)
No score for this post January 18 2004, 1:02 AM
514, 13.93com., 40 degree timming, roller cam, victor w1300 cfm pro sytem carb.
7200 rpm 779.5 HP/ 616.2 TQ (peak of 7 pulls on Sunoco Supreme)
Heads 2.250 intake/ 1.880 exaust on 4.5 bore @28"
.100 75 cfm 63 cfm
.200 142 113
.300 210 151
.400 275 184
.500 307 214
.600 341 239
.700 367 256
.800 380 270
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 Scott, aka The Mad Porter, Get Your BT #'s Here
No score for this post February 17 2004, 6:40 PM
Scott,
If you can pull your BT flow numbers from this thread. There are 4 stages of development from out of the box to fully race ported.
Thanks, Charlie
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Scott J. AKA the Mad porter !!!
(Login Scott429)
131.191.42.160 I thank you good sir !!!
No score for this post February 17 2004, 6:45 PM
I will note in the chart that the numbers come from the nimble fingers of Charlie Evans the griller of fine steaks (unless lem is buyin') ???
Ohh hope that doesn't get me in dutch.!!!
Scott J. / RHP
"If ya got flow roast'em"
http://reincarnation-automotive.com
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Gary Blair
(no login)
12.77.47.239 Charlie, those are nice numbers. Are they with a 2.300 and 1.800? n/m
No score for this post February 17 2004, 8:55 PM
n/m
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Lem Evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 2.300" / 1.820" n/m
No score for this post February 17 2004, 9:47 PM
n/m
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Anonymous
(no login)
67.72.204.33 Re: Blue Thunder "e;B"e; Heads - Flow Development Stages
No score for this post February 17 2004, 7:39 PM
The exhaust ports sure flow a lot of air - probably a GREAT head for nitrous.
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Anonymous
(no login)
67.72.204.33 Nitrous anyone ??
No score for this post February 17 2004, 7:41 PM
The exhaust ports sure flow a lot of air - probably a GREAT head for nitrous.
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.100.130 DAVE MEISTER This Bud's For You,
No score for this post September 8 2005, 1:09 AM
I mean bump. Here is the flow data for the Blue Thunder heads we've been talking about and pictures of the manifold also.
Hope this helps,
Charlie
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Dave Meister
(Login 8sec_torino)
216.138.178.154 let's crack a few and...
No score for this post September 9 2005, 7:47 PM
get Bob hammered (might take some shine) then YOU ask him if he'll sell those heads. Those numbers kick ***!! I'd really like to have those heads right about now and see how much N2O my fancy, new bottom end will take(thanks Greg Pettit). Bob's right though, it would be better to sell the entire engine.
Dave
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Kyle Ladowski
(Login bbf468)
206.40.119.80 How much more do you
No score for this post September 8 2005, 1:30 AM
Think a set of "a" heads would make on this engine?
Kyle
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.100.130 Kyle, I Think At Least 100 Hp
No score for this post September 8 2005, 2:04 AM
The peak intake flow numbers would go from 380cfm to 450 cfm. That's 70 cfm at peak and should be around 100 Hp. We are kinda' anxious to try it and probally will sometime in the next year. I sent you another VIP e-mail.
Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 152.163.100.130 on Sep 8, 2005 10:42 AM
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waterslinger
(Login waterslinger)
69.128.246.8 Re: Kyle, I Think At Least 100 Hp
No score for this post September 8 2005, 7:37 PM
Nice set up. Did not see any info on boat set up. Can you dyno with wet headers? Just wonder
what kind of power it kills.
438ci Big Block, Powerglide 6400 stall, 9" rearend 4.56 gear, 4-Link suspension,
1/8 mile 6.11@113mph on motor
http://www.geocities.com/ryan98gt/fordzilla
http://www.geocities.com/waterslinger1
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.116.130 Waterslinger; Lem or Jet Boat Bob
No score for this post September 9 2005, 11:22 AM
need to answer any questions about that boat hull. That's their field of expertise, not mine. That particular orange hull has since been sold, but Bob still has the engine. I guess it's for sale too, if a person comes up with the "right money".
As for dynoing wet headers, no we can't. In hindsight that's something I wish we could do, and when Bret Powell was building his new DTS dyno cell, I strongly advised him to be able to collect exhaust gases from either upright truck pullers headers, to upswept dragster headers including boat headers and then the traditional door car headers.
So, I think Pullin' Bret can do that. You may want to contact him, PFC Engines in Missouri.
Hope this helps,
Charlie
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waterslinger
(Login waterslinger)
192.91.147.34 Re: Waterslinger; Lem or Jet Boat Bob
No score for this post September 9 2005, 11:27 AM
I am sure the up sweep or traditional down sweep headers have a impact on power. Would make for a fun day on the dyno to see.
438ci Big Block, Powerglide 6400 stall, 9" rearend 4.56 gear, 4-Link suspension,
1/8 mile 6.11@113mph on motor
http://www.geocities.com/ryan98gt/fordzilla
http://www.geocities.com/waterslinger1
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Current Topic - Blue Thunder "B" Heads - Flow Development Stages
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Blue Thunder "B" Heads - Flow Development Stages
December 21 2003 at 9:23 PM
No score for this post Charlie Evans (Login c.evans)
from IP address 205.188.209.73
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Guys,
I thought I'd post the stages of development that Lem and I went through on a set of Blue Thunder heads that we did for a friend of ours. He's using these heads on a pump gas engine. We did 'em last year.
The "B" heads are the ones with the Chevy style exhaust port, and as most of you know, it is a stock CobraJet style intake port. The valve sizes were 2.300" on the intake and 1.820" on the exhaust. All flow numbers are from our SuperFlow SFC 600 bench and are on a 4.625" bore and are @ 28" H2O. This data may be beneficial for some of you guys and Scott J. if you want to include them on your web site, for informational purposes you may. I'm not bragging or saying these are the best out there, because I'm sure they are not. I will say they are very good numbers and that they are good heads. These are an average of all 8 ports, with the decimels rounded off to the nearest whole number.
1. Out of the box - Unported - with a valve job.
Intake; .100=67,.200=129, .300=188, .400=251, .500=301, .600=322, .700=331, .750=335 total=1924
Exhaust .100=60,.200=114, .300=148, .400=176, .500=194,
.600=207, .700=215, .750=219 total=1333
2. "Super" Bowl Work/Blending
Intake; .100=71,.200=150, .300=209, .400=273, .500=329, .600=340, .700=343, .750=346 total=2061
Exhaust .100=61,.200=118, .300=158, .400=188, .500=213, .600=237, .700=258, .750=266 total=1499
3. Fully Ported Street/Strip
Intake; .100=72,.200=148, .300=213, .400=277, .500=331, .600=351, .700=356, .750=359 total=2107
Exhaust .100=67,.200=122, .300=163, .400=191, .500=215, .600=241, .700=265, .750=276 total=1540
4. Fully Race Ported. This past month we re-worked them again and Lem and I flowed them this morning.
Intake; .100=73,.200=152, .300=216, .400=281, .500=335, .600=363, .700=377, 750=380 total=2176
Exhaust .100=67,.200=122, .300=163, .400=198, .500=227. .600=251, .700=271, .750=280 total=1579
I hope this info is beneficial. Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 152.163.252.232 on Jan 14, 2004 2:04 AM
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 205.188.209.73 on Dec 21, 2003 9:27 PM
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Author Reply
Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
205.188.209.73 Dyno Results From These Heads
No score for this post January 14 2004, 10:24 PM
Hey Guys,
We've got some good dyno results from the heads that I gave you flow numbers on in the above post. Bob sent some pictures also and I'll see if we can get them up.
The engine is a pump gas 572 CID and with a flat tappet cam and a single 4 barrel we got 718 lbs.ft. @ 4900 rpm and 743 Hp @ 6100 rpm.
With a tunnel ram and 2 X 4 we got 746 lbs.ft. @ 4900 rpm and 779 Hp @ 6300 rpm.
Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 64.12.96.200 on Jan 15, 2004 9:23 PM
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
205.188.209.73 Burp # 2
No score for this post January 14 2004, 10:34 PM
n/m
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 205.188.209.73 on Jan 14, 2004 10:51 PM
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 205.188.209.73 on Jan 14, 2004 10:50 PM
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chilly460
(Premier Login chilly460)
Forum Owner
168.73.245.58 Some pics from Charlie!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 9:54 AM
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waterslinger
(Login waterslinger)
192.91.172.36 Re: Some pics from Charlie!!
No score for this post September 9 2005, 9:41 AM
My TFS intake has a standard 460 water neck. In the pic your intake takes a
small block set up. Why did TFS change it?
438ci Big Block, Powerglide 6400 stall, 9" rearend 4.56 gear, 4-Link suspension,
1/8 mile 6.11@113mph on motor
http://www.geocities.com/ryan98gt/fordzilla
http://www.geocities.com/waterslinger1
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.116.130 Answer For Waterslinger
No score for this post September 9 2005, 11:13 AM
I'm pretty sure you are talking about the second picture down. That's the new style TFS single plane manifold that is currently on the market.
A little history is in order. When TFS made the old style tunnel ram manifold (that we call the John C. Holmes manifold), it's water neck was traditional BBF and the thermo housing surface was horizontal,, , , there were no clearance problems with the distributor caps because the runners were so long. As a sidenote the single plane manifold that carried either the TFS logo or Ford Motorsport logo had a horizontal mounting surface for the water neck also.
Then TFS redesigned the tunnel ram and made the runners shorter and the plenum bigger. This is current tunnel ram that they have on the market. With the shorter runners we had major clearance problems with the distributor cap. So the only distributor anybody could run was the MSD crank trigger or the Mallory Pro crank trigger. Because of the bigger Pro Style cap diameter with these crank triggers, there were clearance issues over there around the water neck/ thermo housing area and it was resolved by rotating things from a horizontal mounting surface to a vertical mounting surface. Thus using the SBF style housing.
Later on then, when TFS totally redesigned the single plane intake into the one in the second picture, they just continued that design feature.
I hope that helps,
Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 64.12.116.130 on Sep 9, 2005 11:15 AM
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Lem Evans
(Login l-evans7)
69.166.129.47 Old style TFS TR manifolds .
No score for this post September 9 2005, 6:40 PM
There were two , the "holmes" and a unit that the runners were shorter than the new style manifold....damn near looked like a blower manifold the runners were so short .
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Brian
(Login blownufo)
199.64.0.252 572 Destroyer
No score for this post September 8 2005, 2:00 PM
I think this would be a great crate motor to develop for that 572 Destroyer engine program you guys have been talk about.
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 You All Need To Look At This !!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:08 PM
Hey Guys,
IMO this is some of the best information we've put up on the forum. I'm surprised you all aren't tripping all over it. I've given you flow numbers on Blue Thunder heads and then I've given you dyno numbers from the 572 CID Pump Gas engine they were used on. Back to back numbers between a 1X4 single plane and a 2X4 tunnel ram. We've got pictures of the engine on the dyno and then in a boat. Sorry that it's taking a long time to load, but just bear with it.
The engine made over well over 700 lbs.ft. of torque from the start of the pulls which was 4800 rpm through 5700 rpm, and then was still making 649 lbs. at 6300. We didn't necessarily build it seeking peak horsepower numbers, but we tried to build a "safe" torque monster that can run all day. We believe we succeeded in doing that. Questions or comments?
Charlie
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jeff hann
(no login)
205.188.209.73 AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:38 PM
It looks like you guys have been working your butts off. You better put some wings on that boat, because it looks like its gonna fly away. Thanks for the flow numbers, I've been looking at aluminum heads and comparing all the numbers I can get my grubby mitts on.
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Brow
(Login Brow)
203.221.68.14 WOW!!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:47 PM
I think this an awesome combo. Would this engine combo work as well in a drag car as it will in the boat?
Would the cam be compatible with a bracket car?
What are the details of the combo? I have a set of B heads very similar to your street/strip combo (currently damaged from a piston to valve mishap that took out most of the bottom end) and will be putting together a stroker one day when I can afford it. I like the combo you have put together, not too many revs so it will last.
I will be repairing the heads and getting them ported to race specs.
I would ask you to do them but I live in Australia and it will cost too much to send them over. I have guys picked out over here who have done some impressive things with Trick Flow small block heads ( they even impressed the factory guys)
Thanks
Brow
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LeRoy
(no login)
206.97.63.178 Awesome!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:50 PM
Great info, awesome job! Looks like you have a happy boat owner! nice flow numbers... and dyno numbers too!
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Dave M
(Login 9sec_torino)
209.83.88.112 good info, thanks!!
No score for this post January 15 2004, 9:10 PM
I have been thinking over what you guys accomplished. Not too shabby! I would love to put that in my daily driver The pics are cool.
Flowed my unported "B" heads and #'s were nearly identical to your stage one. Will be getting mine back in a few weeks and hope they mirror your stage four. I was told maybe more.
My BT's will be used in a drag race N2O, 525", hi compression, single carb engine. I'm really hoping it will make 900+ N/A. The further I get into this build the more concerned I am it won't make the power. If I need to put the pipe down and start saving for a bigger N2O kit, let me know.
Seriously though, I hope you won't mind some questions when it gets to that point.
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madmudder
(no login)
24.162.95.220 I'm Impressed
No score for this post January 15 2004, 8:43 PM
Hey Charlie I wish I knew a little more about flow numbers. I do know about torque,horsepower and pictures and ya'll have me so stirred up I'm going to the back to find my girlfriend. (good job) Mac
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.96.200 Engine Data
No score for this post January 15 2004, 9:43 PM
The cam was 270* - 278* @ .050" The lobe seperation angle was 110* and it had a ground in 4* advance. So the intake lobe centerline was 106* and the exhaust was 114*. In open 29*, In close 67*, Ex open 73*, Ex close 25*. Lobe lift was .400" so it was .692" gross at the valve.
The compression ratio was a "safe" 10.25 : 1 with JE dished pistons on a 6.800" long Eagle rod. Bore was 4.605" and stroke was 4.300" using a cast steel Scat crank. Milodon pan and windage tray with just an external belt driven oil pump,(not a dry sump). Timing was at 37 - 38*
We could have upped the compression ratio some and certainly made more power, but we really wanted to keep it safe for pis poor pump gas that came from Poldunk Hollow.
The single plane Victor SVO manifold had an 1150 cfm Dominator on it and the tunnel ram is one that Jet Boat Bob made himself. It had a pair of Quick Fuel reworked 1050 Dominators on it.
Yes, it would "work" in a drag car and be a safe dependable engine. There at one time the timing got accidentally bumped up to 46* and the engine never pinged during a pull. (Always bring a spare timing light to your dyno sessions, so when you're high dollar light goes bad, you'll have a spare!)
Charlie
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Brow
(Login Brow)
203.221.64.227 Thanks
No score for this post January 15 2004, 11:21 PM
I was thinking of upping the compression to about 13:1 and converting over to alcohol with my Pro Systems 1170. I have a Victor ported to the heads and custom headers.
How would that go with the rest of your combo? I really do like keeping the revs down so it will have a long life. I don't mind spending some money to get the right parts. What block did you use?
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 Answers To Questions
No score for this post January 16 2004, 12:32 AM
Brow,
We used a Ford A-460 block. That will accept the big bore of 4.605".
As for how would your upgrade plans "fit" with the rest of our combo? Okay - BUT - you'll be exceeding the 850 Hp limit of the Scat cast steel(9000) crank. Therefore you'll need to upgrade the crankshaft to be able to safely handle the horsepower upgrades such as compression & etc. You will need a good forged crank or a billet for your intended application.
Charlie
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Brow
(Login Brow)
203.194.40.147 Thanks again
No score for this post January 16 2004, 1:42 AM
Thanks again Charlie,
I don't know when I will be doing the rebuild - I just moved state and my little boy is just turning 1 with another kid in the near future plans as well as a new house etc.
I look forward to a similar combo to what you have built, but will have to up the budget a bit to include better block and crank.
I will keep up with the info on this forum so I can build the best I can afford.
Brow
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BZstang
(Login BZstang)
152.163.252.232 NICE JOB
No score for this post January 16 2004, 8:12 AM
Charlie. I didn't see it or i missed it you are running a shorter stroke crank than 4.5. If so i would of thought the HP numbers would of come in at a little higher rpm?. Or is it because the cam is 4 degrees advance?. Or is it that T-ram with its long runners?. Anyway great job that is some pretty impressive picture's you have there good luck.BZ
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Rich L
(no login)
151.203.41.131 Re. Good Job
No score for this post January 16 2004, 8:29 AM
Hey Bob get OFF the Blabbing and call me.Tubular Automotive called . They'r bending 2 1/4 pipes next week and they want you'r car NOW!! Latest Monday.If you can't get the heads on in time I'll do it. Call me Rich L
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
205.188.209.73 Horsepower and RPM
No score for this post January 16 2004, 12:06 PM
Bobby,
Good questions. Yes we are running a 4.300" stroke crankshaft with this pump gas deal.
Pull # 10 gave the following results with pump gas and 36.5* timing.
I'm just giving the upper numbers;
5600 = 755 Hp
5700 = 758
5800 = 764
5900 = 771
6000 = 773
6100 = 770
6200 = 776
6300 = 779
6400 = 774
6500 = 772
6500 rpm was where we stopped the pulls. Last thing we did was throw some Torco 116 race gas in it. As Phillip said this was the wrong application, meaning 110 would have been good enough, but here are the results with the timing bumped to 38.5*
5600 = 750 Hp
5700 = 759
5800 = 765
5900 = 771
6000 = 771
6100 = 773
6200 = 778
6300 = 780
6400 = 781
6500 = 781
So we see the engine peaked out just a little bit higher as you thought it might Bobby. Remember our objective was to build a safe pump gas engine that would be good for riding around and drinking beer and eating fried chicken. This engine has dished JE pistons and one thing Lem said was that; "This engine is just a set of flat tops and a roller cam way from being a good race engine!" True statement.
Charlie
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Doug Rahn
(no login)
152.163.252.232 Very impressive Charlie.
No score for this post January 16 2004, 1:37 PM
Is that your shop? It looks like it's loaded with lots of goodies.
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lem evans
(no login)
12.148.40.83 Re: Very impressive Charlie.
No score for this post January 16 2004, 3:37 PM
That Charlie sure is impressive isn't he!
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Doug Rahn
(no login)
64.12.96.200 Sorry Lem.
No score for this post January 17 2004, 5:57 AM
I didn't mean to leave you out of the mix. Your just as impressive as Charlie!
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 Thanks, but thats not my point..
No score for this post January 17 2004, 10:17 AM
Just liked the sound of "impressive Charlie" !
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 Sorry Doug.
No score for this post January 17 2004, 10:21 AM
I meant "Very impressive Charlie". That would be a great login name for Charlie!
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Doug Rahn
(no login)
205.188.209.73 That's a good one Lem! lol
No score for this post January 17 2004, 12:54 PM
Did you hear that Charlie?
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 Lem Is Just A Parts Delivery Boy !!
No score for this post January 18 2004, 10:48 PM
Doug,
I hear ya'! I'm sorry but Phillip O. and I were at the NHRA Div 3 Awards Banquet this past weekend at Indy, so I've been gone for a few days.
I'm also sorry that Lem was "tripping" about the very impressive Charlie stuff. I don't know what I do to deserve all the abuse that Lem gives me. He always embarrasses all of us, that's one reason we left him at home this weekend and didn't let him rub elbows with the sponsors at Indy.
To answer your question that's Bob Hardison's well equiped garage, complete with bathroom, washer, dryer kitchen, stocked refrigerator, TV, stereo and etc. Then the good stuff is about 4 welders, a Bridgeport, lathe, grinders and etc. Bob, Lawes, Phillip and myself do all the work, in fact if the truth be known, we just use Lem as the parts delivery boy! Heh-he!
Charlie
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 Very impressive , Very impressive Charlie.
No score for this post January 19 2004, 9:34 AM
n/m
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Sam Lam
(no login)
64.40.92.134 Octane
No score for this post January 16 2004, 4:43 PM
What Octane was the Pump gas , do you tink that the 110 would give more HP than the 116
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lem evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 92 pump octane and yes. n/m
No score for this post January 16 2004, 8:45 PM
n/m
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Sam Lam
(no login)
64.40.92.134 What is the cut off
No score for this post January 19 2004, 10:12 AM
At what compression would you go to the 116
Or may be what is the most compression would run on the 110
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Sam Lam
(no login)
64.40.92.134 What is the cut off
No score for this post January 19 2004, 10:21 AM
At what compression would you go to the 116
Or may be what is the most compression would run on the 110
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lem evans
(no login)
12.148.40.83 Re: What is the cut off
No score for this post January 19 2004, 11:11 AM
Torco 110 is good for 13/13.5 easy enough.
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MY514Mach1
(no login)
152.163.252.135 Here's some more BLUE THUNDER info (FORD EX)
No score for this post January 18 2004, 1:02 AM
514, 13.93com., 40 degree timming, roller cam, victor w1300 cfm pro sytem carb.
7200 rpm 779.5 HP/ 616.2 TQ (peak of 7 pulls on Sunoco Supreme)
Heads 2.250 intake/ 1.880 exaust on 4.5 bore @28"
.100 75 cfm 63 cfm
.200 142 113
.300 210 151
.400 275 184
.500 307 214
.600 341 239
.700 367 256
.800 380 270
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.252.232 Scott, aka The Mad Porter, Get Your BT #'s Here
No score for this post February 17 2004, 6:40 PM
Scott,
If you can pull your BT flow numbers from this thread. There are 4 stages of development from out of the box to fully race ported.
Thanks, Charlie
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Scott J. AKA the Mad porter !!!
(Login Scott429)
131.191.42.160 I thank you good sir !!!
No score for this post February 17 2004, 6:45 PM
I will note in the chart that the numbers come from the nimble fingers of Charlie Evans the griller of fine steaks (unless lem is buyin') ???
Ohh hope that doesn't get me in dutch.!!!
Scott J. / RHP
"If ya got flow roast'em"
http://reincarnation-automotive.com
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Gary Blair
(no login)
12.77.47.239 Charlie, those are nice numbers. Are they with a 2.300 and 1.800? n/m
No score for this post February 17 2004, 8:55 PM
n/m
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Lem Evans
(no login)
68.235.57.32 2.300" / 1.820" n/m
No score for this post February 17 2004, 9:47 PM
n/m
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Anonymous
(no login)
67.72.204.33 Re: Blue Thunder "e;B"e; Heads - Flow Development Stages
No score for this post February 17 2004, 7:39 PM
The exhaust ports sure flow a lot of air - probably a GREAT head for nitrous.
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Anonymous
(no login)
67.72.204.33 Nitrous anyone ??
No score for this post February 17 2004, 7:41 PM
The exhaust ports sure flow a lot of air - probably a GREAT head for nitrous.
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.100.130 DAVE MEISTER This Bud's For You,
No score for this post September 8 2005, 1:09 AM
I mean bump. Here is the flow data for the Blue Thunder heads we've been talking about and pictures of the manifold also.
Hope this helps,
Charlie
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Dave Meister
(Login 8sec_torino)
216.138.178.154 let's crack a few and...
No score for this post September 9 2005, 7:47 PM
get Bob hammered (might take some shine) then YOU ask him if he'll sell those heads. Those numbers kick ***!! I'd really like to have those heads right about now and see how much N2O my fancy, new bottom end will take(thanks Greg Pettit). Bob's right though, it would be better to sell the entire engine.
Dave
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Kyle Ladowski
(Login bbf468)
206.40.119.80 How much more do you
No score for this post September 8 2005, 1:30 AM
Think a set of "a" heads would make on this engine?
Kyle
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.100.130 Kyle, I Think At Least 100 Hp
No score for this post September 8 2005, 2:04 AM
The peak intake flow numbers would go from 380cfm to 450 cfm. That's 70 cfm at peak and should be around 100 Hp. We are kinda' anxious to try it and probally will sometime in the next year. I sent you another VIP e-mail.
Charlie
This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 152.163.100.130 on Sep 8, 2005 10:42 AM
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waterslinger
(Login waterslinger)
69.128.246.8 Re: Kyle, I Think At Least 100 Hp
No score for this post September 8 2005, 7:37 PM
Nice set up. Did not see any info on boat set up. Can you dyno with wet headers? Just wonder
what kind of power it kills.
438ci Big Block, Powerglide 6400 stall, 9" rearend 4.56 gear, 4-Link suspension,
1/8 mile 6.11@113mph on motor
http://www.geocities.com/ryan98gt/fordzilla
http://www.geocities.com/waterslinger1
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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.116.130 Waterslinger; Lem or Jet Boat Bob
No score for this post September 9 2005, 11:22 AM
need to answer any questions about that boat hull. That's their field of expertise, not mine. That particular orange hull has since been sold, but Bob still has the engine. I guess it's for sale too, if a person comes up with the "right money".
As for dynoing wet headers, no we can't. In hindsight that's something I wish we could do, and when Bret Powell was building his new DTS dyno cell, I strongly advised him to be able to collect exhaust gases from either upright truck pullers headers, to upswept dragster headers including boat headers and then the traditional door car headers.
So, I think Pullin' Bret can do that. You may want to contact him, PFC Engines in Missouri.
Hope this helps,
Charlie
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waterslinger
(Login waterslinger)
192.91.147.34 Re: Waterslinger; Lem or Jet Boat Bob
No score for this post September 9 2005, 11:27 AM
I am sure the up sweep or traditional down sweep headers have a impact on power. Would make for a fun day on the dyno to see.
438ci Big Block, Powerglide 6400 stall, 9" rearend 4.56 gear, 4-Link suspension,
1/8 mile 6.11@113mph on motor
http://www.geocities.com/ryan98gt/fordzilla
http://www.geocities.com/waterslinger1
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Current Topic - Blue Thunder "B" Heads - Flow Development Stages
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