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  #1  
Old 09-21-2013, 10:51 PM
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Default MSD adjustable timimg control vs boost timing master

Hi guys. Just looking for your input on the MSD Boost Timing Master pn 8762 (in my car now) VS the MSD Adjustable Timing Control pn 8680.

I have a blown 460 as a lot of you know, that I have been making some changes on.

Right now I have a Boost Timing Master that adjust timing from 1*-4* per pound of boost. My question is what are your opinions of the one I have in it as compared to the Adjustable Timing Control I have sitting beside it.

I like that the adjustable one can help on hard starting engines by just turning the knob and changing my timing a bit. Bit I also like having my timing changed along with boost pressure.

Any personal preferences or certain advantages that I should be aware of? Would like to have the two combined.........

Thanks for any input/advice/opinions you have to offer.

Auggie

Last edited by ag460torino; 09-22-2013 at 07:34 AM. Reason: bump
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Old 09-22-2013, 07:41 AM
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Default bump

posted late last night so I wanted to bump it to today... sorry for the quick bump but thanks for any advice
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Old 09-22-2013, 10:11 AM
turbo2256b turbo2256b is offline
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I have the boost control boxes purchased for my boat but havent installed them yet. I do run the 6 series computer programable units on 2 of my vehicles NA. Realy like the ability to adjust my timing much as I could using the Tweecer while running SEFI on one of the vehicles. Many things could be done not possible with just mechanical and with vacuum advance combos.

There is one thing I learned with any of these style set ups similsr to the MSD eletronic timing, retards, delay boxes, start retard functions,etc rotor phasing should be checked under all conditions. Had to use adjustable rotors on both my cars to correct for the eletronic timing units.
Hope you have already checked for this.
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Old 09-22-2013, 05:30 PM
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Default rotor phasing

Not sure what you mean by that. My distributor rotor is locked and shaft is shimmed to prevent any change in timing other that what is being done by the boxes. Is that what you mean by rotor phasing? New day and new lesson! Thanks for the input and if you can clear it up even more for me that would be greatly appreciated!

thanks again,

Auggie
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Old 09-22-2013, 10:47 PM
turbo2256b turbo2256b is offline
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Eletronic/computer controls can change the position of the rotor in relation to the contact post in the cap. The phasing should be checked by checking max advance and max retard with engine running.
In my case the spark was occuring after the tip of the rotor passed the post and as it reved up got worse.

To check cut a hole in a cap, pick a post that will be easy to see, attach a timing light to that plug wire and pear into the hole in the cap. Advance as far as possible then retard to the max at approate RPMs see how well the tip of the rotor and the post line up. it should be centered in its travel across the post an adjustable rotor is one way to correct it.

Some caps hole has to be cut in the side so I have several caps from other makes and models of dizzys.

A common sign its out of phase is build up of crud on the rotor tip and on the post biased towards one edge.

This could also happen on a non eletronic controlled unit if something is assembled out of wack
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DIS CAP 002.jpg (85.7 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by turbo2256b; 09-22-2013 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:57 PM
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OK... I get what your saying now. Never heard of it called that and I've been wrenching 40 years...... But one thing I have found out is terminology changes from one person to another. And like I said, my dizzy is locked. No advance or retard except for initial set up and then it's all up the the electronics. It was at 20 deg......... And was building 7 lbs boost. so if I set it at 2* per lb it will take it up to the brink of detonation before TDC. But I can't set it back to start easier. That's where the other box would be nice. I can run BOTH and have a toggle to swap from one to the other. Not a big deal.... With me you just never know, lol

I like the cut out to see what is going on. Thanks for the input and advice!

Auggie
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Old 09-23-2013, 04:15 PM
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Default dualing timmers...

I think what I am going to do for now is to mount second unit just below first. Since they BOTH wire up pretty much identically I can splice right into the other. Where the yellow goes to white on each unit I am going to run the yellows to dash toggle and have the white come off of it. Then I can try one compared to the other in a literal "side by side" comparison. If anyone has a better idea or still.... if anyone can tell me where one is better than other then PLEASE POST your opinions!!!

Thanks for the input and tips/pics. I have a spare older crab cap I can carefully cut away.

I was thinking today of the SBC "clear" caps you could buy years ago. Havent seen them in years and don't even know if they even still make them. But that's what came to mind....

Later.... and thanks again,

Auggie
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Old 09-24-2013, 12:20 AM
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Augie, all your timing hardware is great for what you're doing but if the rotor is out of phase it isn't going to run as well as it could if it fired right in the middle of the post. Makes a difference some times.
Rob
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:45 AM
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Default phasing

I'm getting a little lost with the phasing part. I talked to a buddy of mine tonight and he said that "phasing" is important and is referred too when you are running a crank trigger. Is that the case? Is there some confusion or did I misconscrew something that made it sound like I have a crank trigger? I was thinking about that all day before he called and I was thinking that the phasing thing sounded like something associated with crank triggers and then he called.

The way I was thinking is that, without a crank trigger, you adjust your timing through rotating the dizzy so the phasing thing would change when adjusting it. Unless I set the timing adjuster in the middle of the knob so I can go either way after initial timing set up. I was at 20* before. It started pretty good, a little hard when hot, but pretty good for the most part.

So I guess my MAIN question is........ Are they thinking I am running a crank trigger? Or is phasing something that can, and needs, to be done on ANY distributor/timing set up. And if so. Can you give me better detail as how to do that on mine where I have to turn the dizzy to adjust initial timing? I read about the hole in the cap and I have an older spare. I just need to know how to do it in my situation..... if at all....

Thanks guys and I will check this later to see what you left for me

Thanks again, Auggie
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:56 AM
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Sometimes you get tolerance stack up of the parts and pieces in the dizzy when it is manufactured. The rotor button slot, or mounting ears (which ever you have in your particular dizzy) can get a few degrees out of phase with the reluctor or (in a points set up) the points cam or the cap manufacturer has a tolerance stack up and the dizzy actually fires out of "phase" with the post in the cap. When the arc has to jump a longer distance it causes ozone in the cap and that can cause all sorts of bad crap to happen. Let me see if I can find an article about it. I think MSD has a good write up and they sell the pieces to correct it too. Hold short.........
Rob

OK, here's the fix. Maybe you can understand what's going on by looking at the adjustment on the rotor button.
http://www.msdignition.com/product.a...otor%20phasing

OK, here's a PDF from MSD. The first one on the list pretty well explains it.
http://www.msdignition.com/instructiondownload.aspx


Rob
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Last edited by White Lightning; 09-24-2013 at 02:22 AM.
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  #11  
Old 09-24-2013, 02:01 AM
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thanks Rob... didn't realize you were still on at this time in the morning, lol. Sorry about the PM... apparently it wasn't needed, lol....
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:12 AM
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I saved that site as a fav in my list so I can reference it as needed. I'm running a unilite but I'm sure the theory is the same on all dizzy's. I will have to get ahold of my friend and let him know it's NOT just a crank trigger thing.

And thanks again to both of you for setting me straight on the whole phasing thing. Before now all I ever heard about that was my expedition has a phasing unit on it so I thought it was a "new engine thing". Learn something new everyday!!!

Thanks again,

Auggie

PS.... and it's all making sense now. Just wanted to make sure I was on same page with you guys.....

Last edited by ag460torino; 09-24-2013 at 02:15 AM. Reason: PS
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:46 AM
turbo2256b turbo2256b is offline
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Back in the day of points and purely eletronic ignitions that didnt control timing it was just a issue of stack up of tollerances most of the time and wasnt often I ran into the issue. Today with a perfect distributor then add eletronic advance, retard boxes or a complete programable box to that distributor and phasing can get all out of wack.

As stated I have think its the Boost Master boxes (purchased years ago)for my boat not installed neither are the turbos yet. Now they came out with the 6 series programable units.

My vehicles both have the timing locked around 36 38* with the 6AL computer programable I can perty much change the timing to what ever I want or should say the engine wants. A MAP sensor can be added a 1 bar unit can be programed in to act in place of a vacuum advance. But its like having one fully adjustable not one your stuck wiith. For boost control a 2 bar or 3 bar unit can be installed and programed to taylor timing to boost. Start retard is also programed in if needed. Unit also has several other options I havent used REv limiter,burn out box rev limiter, staging rev limit .

Both vehicles (with the 6AL) one ran best with locked out timing at 36 degrees no phasing issues but once I used the programable set up I found improvements by setting timing curves that would be difficult to do mechanicaly. The other vehicle more of a normal set up.
Thing is Phasing that was good before the programable was way out of wack
on both vehicles more than I had ever seen in 40 years of checking.

The one vehicle may end up with a Eletromotive distributorless system using coil packs next as It looks like more spark duration would be of benifit as well as ditiching all those spark gaps before the plug.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:34 AM
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Default 6al

I know what you mean about the new 6al boxes and if it wasn't for the fact that this one is new, I would probably buy one today, lol. But that will get traded out when it goes bad or something on those lines.

I'm going to cut out a cap today and check it and hopefully it will luck out and be right on Like I said, I learn something new every day.

Always figured that the dizzy would make contact where ever it was turned to set it. Will let ya know what I come up with.

Thanks again guys,

Auggie

PS, saw a crank trigger and 10al box for sale on here but found VERY little on the 10al box on line, summit, etc. to know if it will would work for me or not. If you read this again and know anything about the 10al let me know please. Thanks
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