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Old 09-29-2013, 09:01 PM
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ag460torino ag460torino is offline
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Default enderle injection tuning help!!!

Hey guys.... it's me again... Auggie...

Any of you guys running blown gas Enderle birdcatcher setups on a 466????

I just switched from a 6-71 with twin 750 doms to an 8-71 with a birdcatcher from Alkydiggers. Also did a major cam swap too. He told me that gas has a VERY small window for adjustment when it comes to being too rich and flooding and too lean and hard starting.

Well..... I have been working with the adjustments for a week and I'm just not getting it. The paperwork that came with it is VERY vague to say the least. I understand the WOT pill and how to tune it by changing pills. The problem I am having is getting the idle set to where it's lean enough to not load up but not stall either. I am making MICRO adjustments like I was told to do. The paper says to adjust the spool linkage to lean out idle. As I did the rpms went up to 3K. It says idle adjustment is done with knobs on both sides of butterflys. Obviously when you turn idle down the mixture wants to change and I keep going from one extreme to another.

CAN ANYONE OFFER SOME TUNING TIPS??? PLEASE!!!! LOL

I have searched the archives for the last hour and found a lot of controversy on this unit verses that one... or a lot of units that have been sold for 5 years but still come up.

It just seems odd that I can lean it out and yet it will flood instantly when trying to start. I was told NOT to expect idle to go under 1,500..... I would be happy with a steady, fairly easy starting 2k neutral idle!!!

I just bought everything new from Alkydiggers. Birdcatcher,(8-71 Hampton blower running 10% under NOT from Alkydigger), 80-a pump that was flowed before shipping, belt drive, racing gas from fuel cell in rear pumped up to surge tank in front of rad by electric with holley carb fuel level shut off, primer set up, 3 way shut off valve, lots of in line filters, has the fuel inlet with the bypass pill in the first brass return tube, second return tube has hi speed lean out, valve on hat (throttle spool) has a pill with NO HOLE in the front behind the hex plug......

IF MORE INFO IS NEEDED PLEASE ASK AND I WILL GET IT FOR YOU!!!

I wanted this car back on track last week. Then this week presented lots of problems. I really thought it would be run this weekend. I REALLY NEED IT TO BE ON TRACK THIS COMING WEEKEND! Our local track is close to closing down for the season!!

Anyone and everyone who has worked with, is working with, is familiar with Enderle blown gas systems PLEASE help me get this tuned so I can run next week.

There are a lot of guys on here getting upset with me because they are waiting to see what the Torino does after all the changes!!! LOL

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR ANY TUNING TIPS YOU CAN GIVE!!!!

Thanks, Auggie
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:26 PM
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posted late and wanted to get it on top for in morning!!

Thanks
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:40 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is online now
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Have not worked on a mechanical FI in over 20 years and that was all N/A and do not miss it either. Sorry cannot be of much help other than to suggest convert it to methanol fuel or consider EFI. Honestly they never should have sold you that setup for gas. Is hard to get right and not the place to start if you are not very experienced.

May want to post for help over on the 429-460.com board as some of them run mechanical hat setups.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:29 PM
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Default injection

I did a lot of reading and comparing so I knew that gas is A LOT more sensitive to adjust than alcohol and e85 but a lot less maintenance. Of all the things I have read, they pretty much all say that ONCE you get the idle set up that they are pretty much good to go with periodic maintenance and the WOT is easy to tune with the pills.

I was just hoping to talk to a few people that could help with some hints and tips to save me some time compared to learning as I go. I will figure it out. But I will NEVER turn good advice or tuning tips away.

This car is drag strip only so the need for smooth idle or freeway driving without the "no load float" of EFI wasn't needed. And neither was the plug and play computer or the much higher price tag.

The articles seem to say that you are going to run a little rich at idle but have no issues at WOT. Keep extra plugs on hand, lol. I know when I leave it just a hair rich the idle will stay around 2k, it starts easy with no flooding (which seems odd for running rich), Crack the throttle once or twice and it clears right out so I'm thinking by the time I do my burnout it will be good to go. I LOVE THE THROTTLE RESPONCE!!!!! I had 2 doms and I hated how much foot pressure it took to get WOT. Also, when using the trans brake I would loose half of my booster fuel while on the trans brake and holding pedal down while lights were dropping. I was going to go to co2 throttle system but the pull pressure was way over 40lbs. Now I can go to co2 throttle, hold the trans brake and hold the pedal to the floor and when I let off the switch I will get WOT instantly without the banging and knocking that you get with holding the throttle down with trans brake on.

I can always switch over to alky or e85. It's not that outrageous in cost. New nozzles. Already have the alky pills and the extra high speed lean out bypass valve. Pump. I already have the surge tank up front being fed from fuel cell in trunk with electric pump.

All I can do is ask for advice. If I get none then I will keep reading and work my way through it myself. There is a book out there that has gotten some great reviews. Won't be able to get it by weekend. Also, just got a text from a racing buddy of mine with a local injection guy that told him to have me call and he will see what he can do to help me out.

There are a lot of different ways to go and certain benefits to one over the other each way. I know they sell A LOT MORE alky systems than gas systems. I just made the decision to go with gas.........
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:14 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is online now
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That system is about as caveman as it gets. Is really about doing two things idle and full throttle. It is a linear system meaning as the pump speed increases so does the volume in direct proportion. The rest is just calibration (controlled leaks) and you need to know what the system flows or have it flowed to get a baseline.

The problem with gas is you cannot be off too much like alcohol. Get it right for one set of conditions and it will be off when the weather changes. Big thing is to know what the system flows and how much change in your controlled leaks equals what change in A/F ratio.

Engine is just an air pump and if you know how much fuel to dump in for given amount of air then it is all about what percentage to change if that makes sense. The kicker is what the engines VE curve looks like and how to curve the fuel to match that. Can play with a controlled air leak to adjust idle. Is one way to "curve" the low RPM. That is about all I can say about my experience with mechanical fuel injection.

As I said ask on www.429-460.com are a few guys that run that type of injection. My want to get tech help from who you bought it from too, as well as give Enderle a call.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:12 AM
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Default injection

thanks for the input.

I got some more feelers out there and have been doing a lot of self teaching.

I have seen so many articles and posts from guys that are running gas that had the same idle mix problems I have and yes.... not nearly as forgiving as alky. But most agreed that once it was set up they would never go back to carbs again. THEY ALL SAID that once you get a decent baseline make notes of everything. Pill sizes, shims and springs, use calipers to measure rods and make notes. So if you ever make adjustments you know what to go back too.

One common thing I noticed is they were all talking about leaning it out to where it is running about perfect, then go rich 2 flats. So I was thinking right when I said it seems to run better and start easier a little rich. Like I said, the pump was flowed with the nozzles. I am going to do a barrel leak down test but there is also a "poor mans trick" to setting that too if you don't have a leak down gauge. I do have a gauge though.

Another thing that seems to be common knowledge is that no matter if it's Hilborn, Enderle, Rons, etc..... even though they say they are set up for your car the best ANY of them can do is get it close. They also agree that self teaching/learning is part of the process. There were some links to some (in their opinions) MUST HAVE BOOKS and a 40.00 a year site that will give you more knowledge in one night than you can teach yourself in a year. It's so good that they even offer your money back if you don't like the site. Going to check it out.

I have no doubt I will be happy with it once I learn the tricks. Like idling back to pits with shut off cable half pulled and such. Reading is knowledge and knowledge is power, lol

Thanks again,

Auggie
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:44 AM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is online now
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Yes is like anything else one has to get through the learning curve and understanding how it all works helps too. Just have to be stubborn enough and I'd say you got that covered. Good luck with it.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ag460torino View Post
...running blown gas Enderle birdcatcher setups on a 466????

I just switched from a 6-71 with twin 750 doms to an 8-71 with a birdcatcher from Alkydiggers.

It just seems odd that I can lean it out and yet it will flood instantly when trying to start. I was told NOT to expect idle to go under 1,500..... I would be happy with a steady, fairly easy starting 2k neutral idle!!!

I just bought everything new from Alkydiggers. Birdcatcher,(8-71 Hampton blower running 10% under NOT from Alkydigger), 80-a pump that was flowed before shipping, belt drive, racing gas from fuel cell in rear pumped up to surge tank in front of rad by electric with holley carb fuel level shut off, primer set up, 3 way shut off valve, lots of in line filters, has the fuel inlet with the bypass pill in the first brass return tube, second return tube has hi speed lean out, valve on hat (throttle spool) has a pill with NO HOLE in the front behind the hex plug......

Thanks, Auggie
An 8-71 and twin Dominators on a 460 drag racing engine and just a little ol' 80-A fuel pump??? Or an 80-A1? Please specify exactly which pump you have as there's a very big difference in pumping volume between the two. Also, what did the flow tag say your actual pump flows? It did come with a tag, didn't it?

Paul
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:56 PM
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ag460torino ag460torino is offline
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Hey Paul. I was talking about the doms being on the 6-71 when I started. I was running an aeromotive pump for that.

As you know, the doms AND the 6-71 are gone now.

Here is where I am RIGHT NOW after cam change, went to Hampton 8-71 blower, Enderle birdcatcher BLOWN GAS system. All the injection was bought NEW. Nothing off ebay.

Engine: D0VE-A 460 with TRW .030 forged pistons with dished tops and valve notches and coated skirts. Front AND rear engine mount plates. ARP bolts throughout the entire engine.

Cast D1VE heads ported to felpro gaskets 2.260x1.980, Manley server duty race valves 2.19 int/1.76 exh. Longer screw in studs with guide plates and crane gold wide body 1.73 roller rockers. Crane 1 piece 3/8 pushrods with tapered ends. Crane solid roller lifters and Crane solid roller cam...... SPECS: lift int 578/ exh 599, dur @ 50 int 232/ exh 242. 112 lobe separation. Crane double valve springs with matching retainers and keepers. Crower double row timing set with deg adjustment at cam. Cam degreed in per specs.
Custom equal tube length headers with 4" outlets and turndown pipes with pyros in both sides and o2 sensors.

Steel crank double keyed snout with steel hub for pulleys

Ford HP rods

BLOWER SETUP: Hampton 8-71 with new Teflon strips. Older Mike Kuhl Enterprises Blue Thunder intake. Blower still driven at 10% under like 6-71 was and it was making 5-7lbs boost. Havent made a run yet to know boost on 8-71 at 10%under. Thinking more volume and close to same boost.

NOS SYSTEM: Plate system mounted between hat and blower. Tank not even filled yet. WILL NOT use it till I get injection all set up correct. 450 HP capable but I am just wanting to go 75 hp to use the nos to cool blower at end of run.

INJECTION: Enderle Birdcatcher, belt driven 80A-1 pump. Tag said 7.1 GPM, nozzles are 30. I run 110-112 racing fuel. I have a fuel cell in trunk. I use my aeromotive electric fuel pump with pre and aft aeromotive inline filters to push fuel to regulator. From regulator it goes to surge tank with Holley fuel bowl on it. From surge tank it goes through nostalgic filter to the 80A-1 pump, then through 3 way valve to hat. I have the main pill holder with a 120 pill in it. High speed bypass has a 50 in it. The front cap screw has a blind pill behind it. All 4 return lines go right back to surge tank. Tank is vented into a secondary overflow for safety which is also vented. The electric fuel pump regulator supplies fuel to my primer system also and to the NOS system and fuel gauges.
Butterflies are set at .012, barrel valve tag says 22%.

IGNITION: MSD 6AL, Blaster coil, Taylor 10.4 wires, Mal Unilite dizzy with cyntrifical advance. Boost Master Timing box (also have timing adjust box mounted beside it. Can switch to either one in seconds), 2 step box for trans brake and rev limiter.

DRIVELINE: New Competition Transmisions 4,500 stall double balloon plate converter mounted to heavy duty flex plate, P/G trans with pro tree trans brake, pro bandit shifter and electric shiftnoid (ratio unknown), trans fluid cooler, new heavy duty custom driveshaft, ford 9" with Richmond 4:86 gears on a strange spool with strange axles. 15x15x33 MT's, 4 link suspension all reinforced with heavy plates boxed in and adjustable coil over shocks. Wilwoods on all 4 corners. Tubular upper a-arms on front mustang 2 suspension. Full tube chassis with double dragster cages, all aluminum interior. Chassis shop set it up and weighed in at 51.8% front and 48.2% rear. 3,200 lbs (3,400 with me in it).

COOLING: electric water pump, aluminum 2 row rad with dual fans. Restrictor plate in thermostat housing.

I have been doing a lot of reading last night and tonight and the problem I was having was I was leaning out idle and about the time it sounded the best it would be hard to start and flood very easily. If I left it a little rich it would start easily. It would push a little (very little) black smoke but 1-2 cracks of the throttle would clear it right out and the throttle response was awesome. But I was thinking the leaner the better. Also, as I leaned it out the RPM's would go up to 2,700-3K. When a little rich it was around 2k.

From what I read they said to take it to where you think the "lean" is best and then go "fat" (thinking that means rich) 1-2 flats on the turn buckle. They all seemed to agree that every system is different and that teaching yourself about injection is inevitable. I was looking for any pointers or tips to help me with the idle mixture set up.... and I still am. And while I AM self teaching by looking up and reading everything I can find. There is a book that I have postmarked that they say is worth its weight in gold. I have also signed up with two other forums to try and learn more.

If there is anything you can offer, or if something doesn't look properly matched with the system PLEASE let me know. Usually they always say there isn't enough info posted so I tried to cover EVERYTHING........ but I'm sure I missed something. If there is something else needed to figure things out or to assist in helping me or giving me tips just ask. I will be more than glad to try my best to try and find out anything you might need.

Thanks Paul and I hope I didn't miss anything

Have a good night, Auggie
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:03 PM
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ag460torino ag460torino is offline
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Talked to Jon from Resolution Racing Services for about an hour this morning.

He likes everything about my setup except he is a true believer in ALKY. This guy, from what I hear is an injection Guru. My friend that got Jon and I together races with another friend of our and other friend bought a car set up for Alky and had a lot of problems because it wasn't maintained properly and switched the car back over to gas. I told Jon it was those guys that scared me away from alcohol. I have always like the benefits of alky with a blower from everything I read. But I went with gas because of my friends horror story.

Well, he said that with gas, yes, find the sweet spot in the idle and go fat 1-2 flats. And work between the butterfly gap and rich/lean turn buckle. That will get me a few passes this year.

Then, over the winter he is setting everything up to go with Alcohol and is going to bench flow entire system and set up the fuel curve, then after I get it installed, set it up on the engine so there are no issues at all. Plus teach me how to quick tune it for air temp, altitude, etc. Advised me to get a weather station.

Still taking any tips I can get. Just because I "think" I know what I have to do doesn't mean it will work when I try, lol.

Thanks guys

Auggie

Last edited by ag460torino; 10-03-2013 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:22 AM
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ag460torino ag460torino is offline
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Default reading paid off

I went out to trailer and within 10-15 minutes I had tuning sounding so much better, starting great, tried out some other tips I found..... And they worked out good too. thinking my daughter and I will be at the track this weekend!!!

Then over the winter, I think Jon will be switching injection over to alky. Something else to change over too and get used too. Thanks for the advice and pointers but I think I have a grip on it now and the rest is up to me learning as I go and whatever advice Jon will offer.

Have a good one all, night,

Auggie

Last edited by ag460torino; 10-03-2013 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:19 AM
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Blown gas is a PITA; switch over to methanol and its like hitting the easy button.

For drag racing I don't know why anyone would steer you to run blown gas. They must not like you...lol
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:24 PM
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since that last post many things have changed. It's going to alky. Dropping it off at racing resolutions in NY on 30th to be swapped over.

Other changes are a new 510 short block, the Hampton 8-71 blower and intake, the custom ground cam for the blower app, MY D3 heads, NEW P/G, new fuel cells for alky, separate gas cell for primer starting, lexan windshield.

For all the updates check out my car buildup forum......

But the reason I stayed with racing fuel was because a friend of mine bought an alky racer NOT properly stored and he ran into a ton of problems from the alky being left in the system. So he was TOTALLY against it. I always like all the benefits from alcohol but he scared me. Good part is that everything I already bought can be used with just the addition of direct port nozzles, hoses, dist block and having system bench flowed and fuel curve set up......

I should have stuck with my initial beliefs. But at the same time I got some good "hands on" tuning experience on gas and got to feel the changes and now I will get to see AND feel the changes when going to alky........
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:37 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordyd4 View Post
Blown gas is a PITA; switch over to methanol and its like hitting the easy button.

For drag racing I don't know why anyone would steer you to run blown gas. They must not like you...lol
That what I tried to tell him at the beginning of this thread. Guess have to just learn things the hard way sometimes. LOL

Last edited by 68xr7cat; 11-20-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:50 PM
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E85. Easy.
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