Towing/Gas Mileage 460 engine build - 460 Ford Forum
460 Ford Forum  
Go Back   460 Ford Forum > Tech Topics > Engine Tech

Engine Tech A place to discuss all 385-series engine tech and theory.

460Ford.com is the premier 460 Ford Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-20-2010, 07:25 PM
Muskratt2 Muskratt2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rocky Mount, Va.
Posts: 155
Muskratt2 Driving a Ford
Default Towing/Gas Mileage 460 engine build

Ok guy's I know this topic has been touched in many ways before but what I want is some help designing the motor that I'm going to build for my Dually this winter.
What I have is an 85 F350 Dually. Besides the 460 it has a C-6 transmission with 4:10 gears with 235/85R16 tires. I have Hedman Headers that are 1 3/4" with 3" collectors with 2 1/2 exhaust all the way to the back with Summit Turbo mufflers on them. I use this truck to haul my 24 foot enclosed car trailer with my race car to the track. I also want to be able to cruise around in it around town & some possible long trips on the interstate with it. When I haul the race car to the track I have some real hard pulls up various mountains on the interstate, the interstate speed limit is 65 MPH. I usually don't get the engine above 3000 RPM at ANY time. Even on the interstate when I'm towing the car I don't like to get the truck above 60 MPH which in turn still keeps the RPM's below 3000 RPM.
What I want is help designing an engine that will Tow well & will get the best gas mileage you can get from a 460 whether it is loaded or unloaded. I know that those two words can't be used in the same sentence with a 460, but what I'm looking for is advise from some of the engine builders on this web site.
What I want to is later on add a Gearvendors overdrive unit behind the transmission if that will possibly help the gas mileage as well. I also haven't ruled out changing gears as long as it doesn't hurt the Tow ability.
The heads that I'm using for this will be low compression D2VE heads that if you'll say so I will port & polish.
This Engine is not for Horsepower it will be for Towing & also to get the best gas mileage for this setup.
Here's what I'm wanting some help with the design of this. What is going to be the best Compression ratio for this? What is the best Cam for this setup? Do I want to add coatings to the engine block & internal parts? What is the best intake? What will be the best Carb size & type carb for this setup (vacuum or mechanical secondaries)? Should I zero deck the block? Should I use Stainless steel valves? Should I use Roller rockers? Should I use a Windage tray? What type of bearings should I use? What type of Rings should I use? What type of of oil & what viscosity should it be? Should I Bore the block if it doesn't need it & if I don't can I use the stock pistons if I don't? If I do bore the block what type of pistons should I use? Should I use an EGR system?
I've built plenty of Race motor's but I've never looked at doing something like this so I want all the help I can get! Also this is a Non Catalyst truck so it doesn't have any emissions equipment or have to pass any test. I would like for this to run off of regular or at the most mid grade unleaded. Is there anything I should add to this setuo to help the Towing and gas mileage?
Before anybody answers this post with a response of l"ook at the builds in the archives" I want this to be a specific build not a generic build , so that's why I'm posting this here. I have a lot of respect for guys like Cale and other specific engine builders on here that do this for a living. I will also say that I'm going to do this build myself so that's why I'm picking brains here.
__________________
David Alger
1985 Ford F350 4 door Dually
1964 Ford Thunderbolt Clone (in progress)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 05-20-2010, 07:38 PM
Dukeofdiamonds Dukeofdiamonds is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 548
Dukeofdiamonds Driving a Ford
Send a message via AIM to Dukeofdiamonds
Default

I would lose those heads right away, they are pretty much the worst 460 head ever. They have no quench pad and are very detonation prone. As far as the rest of the build, I will leave that to the rest of the engine builders on here; they will be better at steering you in the right direction. Also, what kind of budget are you on?
__________________
-Dave

83 F-250 "Dave Force One"- 472, NP435, twin stick NP205, D60 front/10.25 rear, 37s
83 Mercury Capri 466/C6- under construction
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 05-20-2010, 07:55 PM
Muskratt2 Muskratt2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rocky Mount, Va.
Posts: 155
Muskratt2 Driving a Ford
Default

For this build what would be wrong with those heads? Not trying to be a Smart a...
As far as the budget, I just bought a house so I can't say Money's no object but I also don't want to put 10 grand into this!
__________________
David Alger
1985 Ford F350 4 door Dually
1964 Ford Thunderbolt Clone (in progress)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:08 PM
jackel200269 jackel200269 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 151
jackel200269 First On Race Day
Default

The d2ve has a really pore combustion chamber. They do not have a quench pad which causes detonation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:09 PM
jackel200269 jackel200269 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 151
jackel200269 First On Race Day
Default

opps I should have read before I posted. Get a set of dove's, c7ve, c8ve, c9ve, which all have small chambers. Or find a set of d3ve's, they have larger chambers but are a dime a dozen and a decent head.

Last edited by jackel200269; 05-20-2010 at 09:11 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:53 PM
95lightiningguy 95lightiningguy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: N.Little Rock AR
Posts: 941
95lightiningguy First On Race Day
Send a message via Yahoo to 95lightiningguy
Default

The d2ve is an open chamber head and is known for detonation problems. The d3ve head is a very good choice for this application if you just have to use factory heads. The doves, c8, etc. will give more compression therefore more power but not necesarily better. There is a engine archive here http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103491 that you can reference and may help achieve your goals.
__________________
89 F150 351w powered
95 F150 300 I6 5 speed soon to be 460 powered lightining clone
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 05-20-2010, 10:33 PM
DJOHAGIN's Avatar
DJOHAGIN DJOHAGIN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 2,633
DJOHAGIN Driving a Ford
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskratt2 View Post
Ok guy's I know this topic has been touched in many ways before but what I want is some help designing the motor that I'm going to build for my Dually this winter.
What I have is an 85 F350 Dually. Besides the 460 it has a C-6 transmission with 4:10 gears with 235/85R16 tires. I have Hedman Headers that are 1 3/4" with 3" collectors with 2 1/2 exhaust all the way to the back with Summit Turbo mufflers on them. I use this truck to haul my 24 foot enclosed car trailer with my race car to the track. I also want to be able to cruise around in it around town & some possible long trips on the interstate with it. When I haul the race car to the track I have some real hard pulls up various mountains on the interstate, the interstate speed limit is 65 MPH. I usually don't get the engine above 3000 RPM at ANY time. Even on the interstate when I'm towing the car I don't like to get the truck above 60 MPH which in turn still keeps the RPM's below 3000 RPM.
What I want is help designing an engine that will Tow well & will get the best gas mileage you can get from a 460 whether it is loaded or unloaded. I know that those two words can't be used in the same sentence with a 460, but what I'm looking for is advise from some of the engine builders on this web site.
What I want to is later on add a Gearvendors overdrive unit behind the transmission if that will possibly help the gas mileage as well. I also haven't ruled out changing gears as long as it doesn't hurt the Tow ability.
The heads that I'm using for this will be low compression D2VE heads that if you'll say so I will port & polish.

As stated before, the D2VE heads do not have a quench pad, and will ping and detonate with what you are planning to do.

I would like to add it would be good to get these heads:

http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/RHPD3Index.html

All you need is the Stage I heads with Inconel exhaust valves. I would spend a little extra and get the chambers polished and have a singh groove machined in.

This Engine is not for Horsepower it will be for Towing & also to get the best gas mileage for this setup.
Here's what I'm wanting some help with the design of this:

What is going to be the best Compression ratio for this? 8 to 1 compression.

What is the best Cam for this setup? Elgin E-1160-P

Do I want to add coatings to the engine block & internal parts? No.

What is the best intake? A factory C8VE intake

What will be the best Carb size & type carb for this setup (vacuum or mechanical secondaries)? I'm partial to mechanical secondaries. Have Bob at Competition Carburetion build you a carb.

Should I zero deck the block? It would be better to have the piston sticking up above the deck by .010-inch.

Should I use Stainless steel valves? On the intake side yes, and inconel on the exhaust side.

Should I use Roller rockers? No.

Should I use a Windage tray? No.

What type of bearings should I use? Fully grooved.

What type of Rings should I use? Plasma-moly on a ductile iron base.

What type of of oil & what viscosity should it be? 20-50 oil.

Should I Bore the block if it doesn't need it & if I don't can I use the stock pistons if I don't? You need to bore and hone and install new pistons.

If I do bore the block what type of pistons should I use? KB hypers.

Should I use an EGR system? No.

Factory exhaust manifolds, bolted directly to the heads, with your pipes into 2 1/2-inch Magnaflows.

I've built plenty of Race motor's but I've never looked at doing something like this so I want all the help I can get! Also this is a Non Catalyst truck so it doesn't have any emissions equipment or have to pass any test. I would like for this to run off of regular or at the most mid grade unleaded. Is there anything I should add to this setuo to help the Towing and gas mileage?
Before anybody answers this post with a response of l"ook at the builds in the archives" I want this to be a specific build not a generic build , so that's why I'm posting this here. I have a lot of respect for guys like Cale and other specific engine builders on here that do this for a living. I will also say that I'm going to do this build myself so that's why I'm picking brains here.
Hope that helps,

Dave

Last edited by DJOHAGIN; 05-20-2010 at 10:44 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:33 AM
Muskratt2 Muskratt2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rocky Mount, Va.
Posts: 155
Muskratt2 Driving a Ford
Default

Now, once again I'm not trying to be a Smart A.. but I've read articles that have said raising the compression will help the gas mileage?
Wouldn't an aftermarket aluminum intake with a coating on the bottom & polished on the outside help because it would cool the charge & itemize the fuel better?
As far as the heads go, I'm thinking to use stock heads to just keep the cost down.
__________________
David Alger
1985 Ford F350 4 door Dually
1964 Ford Thunderbolt Clone (in progress)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 05-21-2010, 07:10 AM
DJOHAGIN's Avatar
DJOHAGIN DJOHAGIN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 2,633
DJOHAGIN Driving a Ford
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskratt2 View Post
Now, once again I'm not trying to be a Smart A.. but I've read articles that have said raising the compression will help the gas mileage?

Yes, that is true, but raising the compression higher will require you run higher octane fuel. The outline I did, you'll be able to run 87 all the time. The outline is higher than stock, which is around 7.5 to 1 from the factory.

Wouldn't an aftermarket aluminum intake with a coating on the bottom & polished on the outside help because it would cool the charge & itemize the fuel better?

Are you looking for hp or for torque? Nothing beats that stock intake below 3000 rpm for the production of torque. It would be good to plumb in fresh outside air to the carb rather than using an open element air filter sucking in hot under the hood air.

As far as the heads go, I'm thinking to use stock heads to just keep the cost down.

Those heads will give you better gas mileage and do not cost all that more after you get all the required work done to a set of stock rebuildable heads.
Hope that helps,

Dave
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 05-21-2010, 01:56 PM
dexter dexter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spanish Fork Utah
Posts: 217
dexter Driving a Ford
Default

Maybe a good head to consider would be one of the fuelies as they would have better velocity below 3k.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 05-29-2010, 07:30 PM
Muskratt2 Muskratt2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rocky Mount, Va.
Posts: 155
Muskratt2 Driving a Ford
Default

I just bought a complete 77 model engine. The block is a D1VE with the heads being D3VE's. What all should I do to the heads?
__________________
David Alger
1985 Ford F350 4 door Dually
1964 Ford Thunderbolt Clone (in progress)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 05-29-2010, 08:28 PM
The Mad Porter's Avatar
The Mad Porter The Mad Porter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tacoma, WA.
Posts: 6,231
The Mad Porter First On Race Day
Cool

Important considerations:

Raise actual factory compression ratio of 7.6 to 1 to a true 8.5 or 9 to 1 with pistons at 0 deck. singe groove is a good addition as is a polished chamber. The more detonation resistance you can build in the combo the greater the static and dynamic c/r you can utilise on regular fuel. Compression = more efficient engine. ( why do you think diesel engines are so efficient. 18 to 21 to 1 c/r) !!!

Mild cam such as a voodoo 61600 and most importantly an early straight up timing set.

Having a properly set up and dialed in carburettor is crucial to part throttle efficiency. I use bobby at competion carbs in nevada. Great street carbs that get good fuel economy.

Properly curved distributor

Having the D3 cylinder heads which are perfectly fine for the application budget ported and a 30 degree back cut on both the intake and exhaust valves will help air flow with out going to a large cam with a bunch of overlap.

The key here is low speed torque, proper a/f ratio at part throttle cruise, proper amount of vacuum advance dialed in after a/f ratio is proper, cold air induction, free flowing exhaust etc.

Under the best of circumstances i have seen some of our 380 to 400 HP 460 builds knock off 13 to 14 mpg highway with carefull driving. This being in a 4000 to 6000 pound vehicle.



__________________
Scotty J. "AKA" The "Mad Porter"
"EMC 2006" 3rd place finisher
Ported BBF iron head specialist & Aluminum heads from all sources.
Custom ground cams
See our products in the Vendor for sale section

http://R-H-P.biz

"ReinCarNation High Performance" (253)-988-6648


http://www.facebook.com/SMJRHP#!/SMJRHP
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 05-29-2010, 09:57 PM
Muskratt2 Muskratt2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rocky Mount, Va.
Posts: 155
Muskratt2 Driving a Ford
Default

Thank's Scotty! When I started this post this was the kind of info I was looking for. What size chambers do the D3VE heads have? I haven't had time to measure them & I haven't been able to find any info anywhere on them.
I was looking on your website & I believe I saw that you can recalibrate the Distibutor. Is that correct?
__________________
David Alger
1985 Ford F350 4 door Dually
1964 Ford Thunderbolt Clone (in progress)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the 460 Ford Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:49 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.