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More oil system woes

60K views 94 replies 50 participants last post by  BBF Newbie 
#1 · (Edited)
More oil system woes, with pix

We have been dyno testing a 598” Boss 9 hemi, and seeing some strange oil system behavior.
Engine data:
4.6” x 4.5”
Our Boss 9 Hemi heads…. (The set from our 2009 Engine Masters 511” entry), Ported
Unported 4500 Kaase intake
1150 dominator carb, by Dale Cubic @ CMF
13 to 1
282-288, .457” lobe, 112 CL Comp Cam
Wet sump pan with our pump
Best power, 1100 HP @ 6900, 875 Ft/Lbs at 5500
This engine is built for a friend to take to Maxton, NC , for the 1 mile speed runs

This has been a great engine, except for the oil system. It has a Moroso road course oil pan. The pickup is ¾ toward the rear, in a 4” x 4” trapdoor box. There is directional screen over most of the bottom. The pan is mostly flat, front to rear, with a trapdoor divider half way back. During a dyno pull, it loses oil pressure, 5 to 10 lbs or more. We tried jacking up the front of the engine to help more oil get to the rear. We tried thinner oil, Mobil 1 0-W50. We tried more oil. Started with 8, then 10, then 12. Then I really got pissed and threw in another 4 Qt, total of 16. Didn’t hurt the power much, but didn’t help the loss of oil pressure. It would start at 60 psi, and go down to 48. When we ran it from 4500 rpm to 7000, the oil gauge would nose dive at 6500 and over. 6200 to 7000 and it still fell at 6500, 4000 to 7000 and it still fell fast over 6500. The length of the dyno run didn’t seem to matter, it was when it reached 6500 rpm and over that the oil pressure went to hell.
The block is aluminum, which has lower head oil drains, so the heads don’t hold much oil in the valve spring area. The lifter lines are restricted. We took it off the dyno and pulled the pan. Bearings were OK.
Because we needed to know whether the problem was the pump or the short block, or the pan, we decided to change pans to my EngineMasters pan and pickup. It’s a 12” deep front sump with no baffles or screens or covers anywhere. Just a big, deep, open pan.
Well, we ran it today, and it was perfect. Even when the oil was hot. It started at 72 psi and would gain a pound or two at 7000. The pressure gauge was perfectly steady, where with the other pan it would bounce a little. We only had 7 qts of oil in the pan!
So, the oil pressure problem was obviously the oil pan. I think most people would have blamed the pump. I had my doubts about it. Now we have to figure out what’s happening in the customer’s pan and fix it. There is a square hole in the screen for the pickup to fit through when the pan is installed. I think maybe all the windage and pulses from the pistons above are disrupting the oil around the pickup.
Next week we’ll work on the pan, and I’ll post some pictures and dyno sheets here.... Kaase
 
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#2 ·
Mr. Kaase

There is definetly lots of power and reliabilty to be found in something that most of us overlook ....the oil pan ;)

I know Lem has touched on that alot with the custom pans he offers , but just like you said everyone wants to blame the pump

cool findings and keep us update sir

later Nick


PS ...what kind of vehicle is that engine going into ?..... sounds like an 250+mph deal , i wanted to go to Maxton this year and spectate and get a feel for that sport ...looks like fun

www.429-460.com
"HOME OF THE FASTEST BIG BLOCKS"



 
#5 ·
Assuming the pick up is a proper distance from the bottom of the oil pan the tube it self can be a issue.
When I was designing production and advance engines often ran into pick up tubes bent to minimum radii. Minimum radius is the diameter of the tube.
A 5/8 tube would be a 5/8 radius the centerline of which is the center of the tube. 2 minimum radii bends before a gerotor style oil pump has such a pressure drop before entering the pump. The pressure drop can cause the oil to reach a boiling point at a lower temperature. The oil starts to foam and the pump cavitates.
Gear pumps such as used in most pushrod engines are not as prone to this issue but can be.
I remember one engine I was redesigning a oil pan for had such an issue they had designed a resivour in to supply the pump on start up. I redesigned the pan deepening it 1.5 inches. I would like to have gone deeper but machining equipment, assembly line transfer equipment and shipping racks prevented it.

Since the pick up needed redesigned I took it upon myself to design it also. Most of the time another designer would have been given the task. The engineers were concerned the deeper pan would agrivate the oiling issue on start up. I redid the pick up eliminating 4 minimum radii 2 of which were 90* bends.
The bends I used were close to the flow of a straight tube. I met with the supplier that was to manufacturer the pick up. He had a fit that I didnt use min radii. He stated they were only set up to do min radii. After getting out a plumbing handbook and explaining to an "engineer" how detrimentel it would be to go with min radii I got it my way. A year later the engineer stated to me the pick up worked better than the old oil pan setup and that the resivour probably wasnt realy needed anymore and was investagating removal of it as a cost save.
 
#7 ·
Mr.Kaase,

Thank you for taking time out of your day to come and share problems you have when building and testing engines.
I also wanted to thank you for answering my questions while you at the seminar in Terra Haute .
I think I owe you a steak dinner the next time I see you.

Todd
 
#8 ·
Some really good replies here. I'm going to build a solid windage tray and try it soon. It's going to be similar to the FE ones that fit between the block and pan. It looks like the screen types are a disaster and the sump needs to be completely covered, the pickup area for sure. Think about the fact that there is 600 cubic inches of air and oil trading places under the pistons and creating havoc with the oil in the pan. Think there is some air mixed with it? Maybe this is why we don't have good luck with vacuum pumps and wet sumps with Fords. I'm going to put max effort into this tray, and maybe we can have it produced for a product to sell. This pan change and results has been a real enlightenment for me. We have many people calling with the same problems, low oil pressure, etc, and many times it is the pan. The bigger the cu. in., the worse the problem.
I'm not sure the pickup tube length is much of a problem, except that the more volume with a longer pickup may have more foam. The engines with external pumps have 3 feet or more of -12 hose from the pickup to the pump and it works. The Moroso single stage external pumps have the same rotors as our pump. Oval track dry sump systems have the tank mid car, and the line from the tank to the pump is 6' long, but the oil is pure with little air in it. I'm at at the ADRL race in Valdosta, Ga. today and the news from here today is not good. .... Kaase
 
#9 ·
Mr Kaase,

Would a windage tray or some derivative make any difference in a situation like this? You would think that it would calm down the oil and air switching places a little or even enough to make a difference. I agree with bruno, there is a lot of power to be made with oil pans, especially with dry sump units. We have done a lot of research in this area and found some stuff that really makes a big difference.
Quick question about the vacuum pump comment. Have you ever had any luck on BBF's with the external pump and vacuum pump combos like the one Peterson makes? Looking to build a 10.5 car and was considering this type of set-up.
Good luck on the rain, I work for a NASCAR Cup team and it is BADD in Talladega right now.

Thanks,

Joe
 
#10 ·
Is this an issue mostly with stroker engines?
How close is the oil to the rotating envelope? A road race pan my not have a deep enough sump. I have tested and built a few road race pans by mounting them in the bed of a truck and filling them with water. Then watch how the water moves around during stops, accelerating and cornering. Leared some supprising things. Some defied logic.
Scrapers can help a lot. Oil will rap around the rotating mass like a rope around a boat prop.
I have never felt expanded metal screens work well. Oil draining might be restricted by oil moving upwards for some reason.
 
#13 ·
This is the first Boss 9 Hemi that we have tried to make any kind of race engine power with. I'm really impressed. The heads are better than stock because they're ported, but still use 2.300 and 1.900 valves. The intake is not ported. It seems to be on the level with C-460 stuff, or at least close at 600". Our best C head 598 with single 4bbl was about 1140 HP, with 16 to 1 and 288/312 cam and the Ford intake. That required lots of head porting and some intake work. ... Jon
 
#71 ·
This is the first Boss 9 Hemi that we have tried to make any kind of race engine power with. I'm really impressed. The heads are better than stock because they're ported, but still use 2.300 and 1.900 valves. The intake is not ported. It seems to be on the level with C-460 stuff, or at least close at 600". Our best C head 598 with single 4bbl was about 1140 HP, with 16 to 1 and 288/312 cam and the Ford intake. That required lots of head porting and some intake work. ... Jon

Does anyone had a guess as to the flow numbers of these heads ?

G-

Jon
 
#16 ·
I found out some more interesting stuff. I went into work on Sunday morning only to get my briefcase, to bring it home and get first quarter papers ready for our accountant. Thirty minutes later I was dynoing this 598 hemi again. I put a remote oil filter with flow meter on to measure how many gal/min of oil flow one of these engines uses. Soon we will put a pump in the road race pan, fill it with thin oil, and run the pump with a drill at the same gal/min the engine shows. I want to see how the oil flows through the trap doors and around the pickup. I have learned a lot about oil pans in the last week. I'm sure we could fix the problems with our pan now, but I'd rather do it with a windage tray, and will start building one this week. Pictures to follow. ... Kaase
 
#24 ·
Needs a a pan with a real rear sump i.m.o.
That flatish floor with an extra qt or two does not offer the pick up very little more oil . I was riding around with a guy from north Ohio Friday...C.Gilbertson,,,said he saw you building engines when you about 7 years old. We tried to call you were out of the office.
 
#25 ·


This is with the flow meter and remote filter. Notice the oil pressure is less. This is because the remote adaptor is rather sharp and needs some inside work to radius the inside oil porting, along with the restriction of the flow meter, along with the 2, 6' -12 oil lines. Also the Systems One filter may be more restrictive, along with a few bends and right angles.
 
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