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More oil system woes

60K views 94 replies 50 participants last post by  BBF Newbie 
#1 · (Edited)
More oil system woes, with pix

We have been dyno testing a 598” Boss 9 hemi, and seeing some strange oil system behavior.
Engine data:
4.6” x 4.5”
Our Boss 9 Hemi heads…. (The set from our 2009 Engine Masters 511” entry), Ported
Unported 4500 Kaase intake
1150 dominator carb, by Dale Cubic @ CMF
13 to 1
282-288, .457” lobe, 112 CL Comp Cam
Wet sump pan with our pump
Best power, 1100 HP @ 6900, 875 Ft/Lbs at 5500
This engine is built for a friend to take to Maxton, NC , for the 1 mile speed runs

This has been a great engine, except for the oil system. It has a Moroso road course oil pan. The pickup is ¾ toward the rear, in a 4” x 4” trapdoor box. There is directional screen over most of the bottom. The pan is mostly flat, front to rear, with a trapdoor divider half way back. During a dyno pull, it loses oil pressure, 5 to 10 lbs or more. We tried jacking up the front of the engine to help more oil get to the rear. We tried thinner oil, Mobil 1 0-W50. We tried more oil. Started with 8, then 10, then 12. Then I really got pissed and threw in another 4 Qt, total of 16. Didn’t hurt the power much, but didn’t help the loss of oil pressure. It would start at 60 psi, and go down to 48. When we ran it from 4500 rpm to 7000, the oil gauge would nose dive at 6500 and over. 6200 to 7000 and it still fell at 6500, 4000 to 7000 and it still fell fast over 6500. The length of the dyno run didn’t seem to matter, it was when it reached 6500 rpm and over that the oil pressure went to hell.
The block is aluminum, which has lower head oil drains, so the heads don’t hold much oil in the valve spring area. The lifter lines are restricted. We took it off the dyno and pulled the pan. Bearings were OK.
Because we needed to know whether the problem was the pump or the short block, or the pan, we decided to change pans to my EngineMasters pan and pickup. It’s a 12” deep front sump with no baffles or screens or covers anywhere. Just a big, deep, open pan.
Well, we ran it today, and it was perfect. Even when the oil was hot. It started at 72 psi and would gain a pound or two at 7000. The pressure gauge was perfectly steady, where with the other pan it would bounce a little. We only had 7 qts of oil in the pan!
So, the oil pressure problem was obviously the oil pan. I think most people would have blamed the pump. I had my doubts about it. Now we have to figure out what’s happening in the customer’s pan and fix it. There is a square hole in the screen for the pickup to fit through when the pan is installed. I think maybe all the windage and pulses from the pistons above are disrupting the oil around the pickup.
Next week we’ll work on the pan, and I’ll post some pictures and dyno sheets here.... Kaase
 
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#55 ·
Jon,

Hope you get this worked out! I have a vested interest.

I have a 521 w/Canton Road Race pan with rear sump. I've been fighting with loss of oil pressure on turns for years on road race tracks, and finally gave up and went to an Accusump. The Accusump wouldn't work for you in your circumstance...

At some point I'd love to have a Boss 604 in a Cobra!

Please keep going on this 'til you wear it out!

Tom
 
#56 ·
no vaccum pump?




your pro stock 800 plus engines all run dry sump systems,which would reduce pressure build up in the pan from windage and engine volume pumping.i dont see any way you can run 600 ci with a small volume pan with no way to reduce pressure below atmosphere.when you put the large volume pan on the engine the issue went away.also with the smaller pan,you had repeatable results with windage disturbing oil flow in the pan at the same rpm.it makes sense that a larger pan would allow for the larger volume of the engine and you may not have the same problem untill a much higer rpm.so i wonder why no vaccum pump on this engine.if you are limited in oil pan configuration then wouldnt the vaccum pump reduce the areation of the sump with reduced atomopheric pressure?less wind= less windage?also i think you may be right about the windage screens.they may work up to a certain rpm,but at some point they will start pulling oil out of the bottom away from the pick up.just my .02.
this also helps me out,as i was wondering what kind of HP I could build with your street boss heads on a 598 and still run a wet sump style pan.dan.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Does this behavior look familiar?



This is a big Chevy jet boat build running with a Hambugers' pan. Oil pressure was perfectly fine at about 65lbs with a stock 4qt pan and stock pickup. Stock pump, .002 rod and main clearance. After switching to the stock pan the customer ran the engine for several years in his jet boat without trouble. With the aftermarket pan getting the engine over about 4700rpm with hot oil had oil pressure heading to the basement.

It was even worse with a Milodon pan and pickup and it would hit 20lbs in about 1 second. A 366 truck pan and pickup were also fine with the same exact quantity of oil except that pan would not fit in the boat.

My conclusion is that just because it's aftermarket does NOT mean even 5 minutes of R and D actually went into the design.

You don't suppose that having the pickup/bottom of the pan and top of the oil getting close to the assembly causes it to actually become a low pressure area right above the pickup which causes problems? The throws zoom by and while maybe they don't pull oil out and into the assembly they DO lower the absolute pressure and this causes problems, is this possible?
 
#58 · (Edited)
Jon,
We're about to install a 545 ci 460 (w/P51 Heads) with a Canton #13-766 Drag race pan. I noticed on the dyno sheet (below), a similar oil pressure drop from 72.6 PSI @4400 rpm to 66.8 PSI @6000 rpm. Certainly not as dramatic as Kaase's experience which went from 60 to 48 PSI but at much higher RPMs. I'm not sure I should be concerned since ~66 PSI at 6000 is very satisfactory.

What's your opinion?



 
#59 ·
I can't say why the oil pressure is droping, but soon we will run a new windage tray in a combo that drops the same as yours. I have some engines that gain pressure as the speed goes up, and some that lose. The difference is usually the pan, but I need a little more time to figure this out. .... Kaase
 
#67 · (Edited)
Hi Jon,

It's Jon C. from San Diego.

I was wondering if you had a Pan-vac system hooked up to this engine? If the problem is windage how much could a Pan-Vac system solve?

In 2007 when I put the 565 on the dyno it was the first time I ever had an oil psi problem on the dyno. It was on a DTS that time and the operator of the dyno had the engine pretty flat as compaired to the times I ran it on a Super Flow. I thought that maybe because of the angle the engine was sitting that the oil wasn't returning to the pick-up.

We chased the oil psi for at least 2 hours that day...just pissed me off for the waisted time.

Anyway.....Pan-a- vac have you ever done an A-B-A test with a system on your dyno and have you tried to see it it would help this engine with the windage problem?

I'm guessing you're running your oil pump on this engine ? (Edit: I see that you are.....)

Old pan...it had a flat windage tray that attaches to the mains:


New Pan:



See ya,

Jon
 
#60 ·
Not sure if this is worthwhile....

When I was at Holley we were oing development on a new electric fuel pump. It ended up becoming the Volumax ones they sold for many years - a gerotor design offerred in 160gph and 250gph designs. On the 250gph they were having problems - even with both a larger rotor and motor it would get noisy, pull lots of amps, and only deliver a few percent more fluid. It quieted down and got way, way more efficient when we added another inlet.

I lost a couple horsepower with the FE solid tray. But it might be better if it were further down into the pan with a few more louvers... Watching....
 
#61 ·
How often do dry sump engines show O/P fluctuations, versus wet sump engines ?

The oil supply into the main feed line from the tank to the pump, in a dry sump, seems
to be ideal. There's a big pool of oil directly above the pump inlet line which then flows
downhill into the pump.

How, then, can the wet sump pickup be made more like the dry sump pickup ?

I see two separate issues in a wet sump; first issue is windage control, i.e., getting oil
away from the crank and keeping it away, second issue is designing a pickup/feed
into the pump.

I realize a limiting factor in wet sump design is how many inches down you can go
with the pan below the crank. My gut feeling is that the farther away from the crank
the better, but it's not a pan volume arguement, it's a distance arguement.

I suspect that IF you could control windage and properly supply the oil pickup,
all within a smaller volume pan, that additional pan volume would not help.

Now, if you need twelve quarts of oil in your wet sump, I guess you have no choice
except to add pan volume. Then, if additionally you cannot make the pan any deeper,
that would be an unsolvable compromise; you would simply have to limit RPM,
as I see it.

JB
 
#68 ·
For picking-up oil for pressure to the engine, a dry sump can share absolutely NO comparison to a wet sump pick-up as the dry-sump draws from a SEPERATE oil resevoir which doesn't have near the windage and oil violence seen inside the engine's oil pan; OF ANY SHAPE.
 
#62 ·
I've done a lot of work on the inside of oil pans, making scrapers, baffles, windage trays, shields and such,,,,on engines with worse oiling systems than the BB Ford.

I remember when Dr. Tom Hoover at Chrysler told us about how they came up with the Mopar windage tray. They had a test engine on the dyno, and the deeper they made the oil pans, the more power the engine would make. Because it was a dyno mule, they made pans as deep as 18". Then one day they cut a big hole in the side of the pan, (which was box shaped) and replaced it with a Lexan window that was about the size of a letter envelope. Then they took a timing light and hooked it up to one of the cylinders and physically looked in there, while the engine was running at full throttle. He said it was a hurricane in there, and that the oil wanted to rope itself around the crankshaft. From there they designed their $9.95 windage tray.

IMO the oil pick-up needs to be shielded from the hurricane above it. So the umbrella or "hat" that is over the pick-up needs to be fairly solid,,,,,meaning this is not the place for a windage screen. Conventional windage screens, like Stef's and Moroso use can be utilized in other parts of the pan, but their purpose is to get the oil off of the crankshaft.

Furthermore, by making a windage tray, and putting several 45* scrapers on it,,, at a biased angle relative to the crankshaft centerline, you can force the oil that is slung off the crank to go to the rear of the pan or wherever your pick-up is located. It will function like a farmers grain auger.

As far as the oil pan volume, I like big pans. They help absorb some of the pumping losses. If you can't go deeper, then go wider with kick-outs.

Jon's problem sounds like windage problem to me, and the oil in the immediate vicinity of the pick-up is being "beat up" and aerated from the windage above the pick-up. This much I know, his new oil pump is a dang good one!

Hope this helps,
 
#63 ·
We have made several wet sump, exterior oil pump oil pans for our race engines, very much like you describe. Of course, each attempt at a new pan incorporated slight improvements, but in all they have been very successful. Currently doing a dry sump pan with many of the same ideas of multiple strippers, directional control slots, rapid evacuation.

I ditto every thing you do to your pans.
 
#70 ·
the whole thread I read and no one mentions types of oil used, I would agree the pan is shallow and a custom windage tray/scraper would make a difference.

But lubricants are different. any petrolium oils have many useless molecules that dont like to slide over each other and wont protect in extreme temps.


Other NON petrolium Lubricants have just a handfull of molecules just needed for extreme heat/suspend contaminates and fluidity, these lubricants if used in testing will yeild different results than petrolium products.

I usually see 10/20psi drop using these lubricants with a more stable gauge reading under load testing.

I see the physical problem keeping oil in the sump, but some oils react different when being pushed through an engine!

Javier
 
#72 ·
Boss 429 Race Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonKaase
This is the first Boss 9 Hemi that we have tried to make any kind of race engine power with. I'm really impressed. The heads are better than stock because they're ported, but still use 2.300 and 1.900 valves. The intake is not ported. It seems to be on the level with C-460 stuff, or at least close at 600". Our best C head 598 with single 4bbl was about 1140 HP, with 16 to 1 and 288/312 cam and the Ford intake. That required lots of head porting and some intake work. ... Jon


Where are the comments from Jon above posted?
 
#73 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonKaase
This is the first Boss 9 Hemi that we have tried to make any kind of race engine power with. I'm really impressed. The heads are better than stock because they're ported, but still use 2.300 and 1.900 valves. The intake is not ported. It seems to be on the level with C-460 stuff, or at least close at 600". Our best C head 598 with single 4bbl was about 1140 HP, with 16 to 1 and 288/312 cam and the Ford intake. That required lots of head porting and some intake work. ... Jon


Where are the comments from Jon above posted?
On the FIRST page of this very thread...
 
#75 ·
Been watching this thread for a while.......any new news on the issues?
 
#77 ·
I've been following this too. Lem brought up Mopars windage discovery. Got me to thinking about a friends BB Mopar. The Mopar guys use a modified pump and either single or dual external lines to a swinging pickup in a mid or rear sump pan. Mopars windage tray is mostly solid and oil drains from it at front and rear of pan. Pretty simple design that seems to work for them. Mopars do need capacity though as their pumps can suck oil faster than it returns if they run too large on pickup tube size.

Maybe you can pluck some ideas out of this. I'd certainly try a solid tray first.
 
#78 ·
Jon, we had a stock front sump pan that we added 2-1/2" with a windage tray. I had no problem with oil pressure. We changed to a flat canton pan. Whenever you hit the brakes our oil pressure nose dives. This pan has two trap door's and is suppose to be the best. We are currently building a new engine and as of right know we are going to put a modified stock pan on this engine that has shown us in the past to hold oil pressure. Thank's again for your oil pump. It hold's between 75-85 psi.
 
#81 · (Edited)
Pan

Well I don't have the amount of experiance you have Mr Kaase but my guess would be that you are running a pan on an engine in a test/dyno stand that was not designed to be used for a test stand/dyno. With the high volume of oil your system is moving (even at 16 qts) the baffles/taps may not letting enough back into the 4x4 sump. In a road racing situation like that pan is intended to be used for you might not have the problem? The oil would be constantly being sloshed into the sump or overcoming the trap doors. Might also explain why a pan with no baffles/traps works fine. Just my thought on it
 
#83 ·
Has anyone thought about putting a window in the bottom of the pan under the pickup?An LED in each corner set to strobe or stay on solid should provide enough light to video and record from underneath.IF it works you should be able to change the size and shape of the pickup for the best results.
 
#84 ·
I really liked turbo2256b`s findings. I will be checking the radius in damn near everything I build now. I never really thought of the bend causing air in such a short distance, or enough to matter. I use to build hydraulic systems @ Trinity Yachts and already new that fittings would cause noise/air but those were extremely long distances.

This thread is a very good read. Please post up results. I`d yank the screens though.
 
#88 ·
For what it's worth . . . .

Most of the comments and information has been directed toward the oil and its interaction with the pan and pan / sump / tray design. And this may not even apply, but just thought would throw it out there.

Something from a few years back: In the quest for easy horsepower, we would see the increase in vacuum pump pull equated into horsepower. Vac readings of 22+ inches just made everybody jump for joy. Problem was that bearing and OP issues we had never experienced started to crop up.

Found that the big vac numbers that sealed up the rings and such, were creating an artificial low pressure environment in the pan that made the oil stream PRIOR to the pump, boil or aerate, causing pump cavitation. Our previously solid column of oil was no longer solid as it entered the pump and we all know that oil pumps move liquid much better than air.

Dropped the vac pull to 16 or so and the problem went away, no other changes at all.

Like I say, may not come into play but something to keep in mind.

Take care, K
 
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