i want to put a mild efi 460 in my 92 for halfton
i want some input on useing a efi 460
i want some input on useing a efi 460
78f2504x4 said:Byron,
Would the Ford Racing MAF conversion kit for the 5.0/5.8 work
on my 89 F350 460 efi truck?
John
It's not the diameter of the mass air meter that is problematic, it's the calibration of the sensor on the meter. The meter is designed to measure airflow in a specific range. If you exceed that airflow, the PCM no longer knows how much air is entering the engine and the system stops working. Ford calibrated that meter to match the capability of the injectors to optimize the resolution across the band they felt the engine would see. They didn't leave much room for growth.leadmic said:Hey Byron, I was reading your post and saw that you refered to a 2001 lighting for mass air sensor and injectors, how big are they? I know the mass air 460 uses only 24lb. injectors wimpy, but the mass air sensor is 80MM. Also only 96-97 Calif. and Mass. were OBD2, all other states were OBD1.
Mark
This is good stuff, so Byron what do think the stock 460 mas air system would top out at horsepower wise? Would installing larger injector gain much? Im just trying to get a handle on when and if I need to go with the the larger Lighting stuff. One other thing Im trying to get a handle on is I remember reading somwhwere that Ford calibrated the ECM not the Mas air meter so to chang the meter calibration you did that through the ECM not the meter its self. Is this correct or do I need better information? School me please.ByronRACE said:It's not the diameter of the mass air meter that is problematic, it's the calibration of the sensor on the meter. The meter is designed to measure airflow in a specific range. If you exceed that airflow, the PCM no longer knows how much air is entering the engine and the system stops working. Ford calibrated that meter to match the capability of the injectors to optimize the resolution across the band they felt the engine would see. They didn't leave much room for growth.
The 2001 Lightning came with 42lb/hr injectors and a 90mm MAF capable of measuring about 500rwhp worth of air flow...or somewhere around 600fwhp tops. The injectors will be all done somewhere around 550-600fwhp.
The stock 460 EFI system has 24lb/hr injectors (310-330rwhp max, about 380-400fwhp max). The air meter (if I remember correctly) will rail somewhere around that power level as well.leadmic said:This is good stuff, so Byron what do think the stock 460 mas air system would top out at horsepower wise? Would installing larger injector gain much? Im just trying to get a handle on when and if I need to go with the the larger Lighting stuff. One other thing Im trying to get a handle on is I remember reading somwhwere that Ford calibrated the ECM not the Mas air meter so to chang the meter calibration you did that through the ECM not the meter its self. Is this correct or do I need better information? School me please.
Thanks Mark
If the computer thinks it's working with 24lb/hr injectors and you install 30's with no other changes, you will introduce a 25% fueling error to the system. When the computer does the fuel pulsewidth math, it will figure 24lb/hr injectors into the equation and pulse those 30's as if they were 24's. The mixture will initially be very rich. As the engine runs, the adaptive control will notice the extra fuel using the oxygen sensor feedback and will lean out the mixture to compensate. The compensation range of the EEC-IV is about +/- 20%, so when it's all done pulling the mixture leaner to compensate, it will probably hit the -20% fuel trim mark and notice there's still too much fuel. At that point, you will get a check engine light for "mixture too rich".leadmic said:Byron, that helps a lot but what Im confused on is for example if you made changes to a mas air 460 like more cam and ported heads and headers could you change the injector to say 30s and get away with using the stock air meter? I guess its the diffrences in air meters thats messing me up. I was under the impression that if you have a 80mm Ford meter and went to a 90mm that all you had to do was reprogram the ECM to accomidate it. Also that the air meter mesured the air flow no matter what was done to the engine, as log as the meter was large enough to allow enough air flow. :?:
Thanks again to the help
Mark
The 2001 Lightning maf is a popular tuner part. I'd search around for the best price; the dealer can likely be beat. Also try www.fordparts.com. The 2001 lightning uses the rectangular style connector. It's available as a service item from Ford if you need it. Depending on which way you go, you may end up with a rectangular or oval style connector. Oh, www.fordfuelinjection.com likely stocks that as well.leadmic said:Thanks for clearing that up Byron, you are a wealth of knowledge on EFI stuff. Two more questions if I may where is the best to get the Lighting stuff dealer? Also are the wiring connectors compatible between the two?
Thanks again
Mark
...and there's nothing wrong with that if you're happy with the way it runs.SillyBoyTroy said:This is why I took out the EFI in my 88 f-250 and put on a holley 750 dp. lol
If you want it even closer to a carburetor...there's a nifty trick you can do to the processor as well. You can recalibrate it and turn off the "closed loop" fuel control, then remove the oxygen sensors entirely. What this accomplishes is the ability to run leaded fuel; as well as adjust your air fuel ratio with fuel pressure. The computer will no longer adapt out your changes. My cobra runs open loop; mostly so I don't have ugly sensors hanging out my sidepipes.SillyBoyTroy said:Great stuff Byron! You make it clear that by changing to a larger injector, its like changing to a larger jet. The computer only goes by know values, and by adding larger injectors and not reprogramming band width spells trouble.
Most chips are $300ish give or take. However, that's just the beginning. MAF/Injectors at a minimum have to be purchased...another $500-800.SillyBoyTroy said:I never really checked into getting the re-programming done on my 460EFI system. The price of injectors etc added up quick. Whats a baseline figure to get the reprograming, injectors, air work re-done?
I'm just curious on a ballpark figuire. (give or take $100.00 -200.00 lol )
If we're still talking about OEM Ford Mass-Air systems...there is no limit to how rowdy the cam can get. This system doesn't measure manifold vacuum at all; it doesn't care.SillyBoyTroy said:One other question I have.... with larger injectors etc.... how much cam can you get away with, or is it a programmable issue too?
I just check maybe rason why for price increase the part number has been repaced with 3s4z-9h307-bcByronRACE said:For the focus pump, the p/n is 3s4z-9h307-ba
www.fordparts.com has this pump assembly for $96.51; it went up about 10 bucks apparently. What you'll get is the whole plastic fuel module from inside a focus tank. Take that apart and extract the pump. I'd fab a bracket and use two of them; much like a 2003 Cobra fuel tank module. If you do that, there's no question you'll have enough fuel system for even 700hp.