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  #1  
Old 07-03-2006, 07:50 PM
1992ford 1992ford is offline
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Default efi 460

i want to put a mild efi 460 in my 92 for halfton
i want some input on useing a efi 460
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  #2  
Old 07-03-2006, 09:15 PM
SillyBoyTroy SillyBoyTroy is offline
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Default EFI 460

I know that ford changed the heads on a 460 from 1987 to 1988. Everything bolts up head and intake wise, but the intake ports dont match up. If i remember correctly, the exaust port bolt holes are off too. As far as going with the stock computer, you are limited on cam sizing ( I may be wrong, I went through this a few years back) As far as I remember it had to do with the computer sensing engine vacuum, and to up the cam a bit, they tweak the exaust duration...or something to that effect. You can put in a pre-72 timing chain, the computer won't notice. :wink: I liked my stock 460 EFI. It ran clean, but i wasn't crazy about not being able to fool around with the timing without changing stuff internally.
I imagine there are programs for the computer out there now adays to tweak things. I just didn't know at the time, the limitations of the intake, heads and injectors. When I rebuilt my truck, I went with C8VE heads and a 750dp holley. Simplicity. I'm not sure how the newer EFI heads flow compaired to the D0VE's . My EFI intake, injectors&fuel rail are sitting in my garage collecting dust. Its a truck i now go pulling with. My" Insane Serenity "

Like I said, I'm going off info from probably 6-8 years ago when a "chip" was availible to gain a itty bitty 25hp. I remember when I bought my truck new in 88, they came out with a bolt on NOS system to spray...woohooo. It was around $600.00. Nahh! I just couldn't...lol I got 168,000 miles out of my efi 460 . Number 7 cylinder kept fouling, black with oil. Upon tearing it down ( I already had a replacement in the garage to drop in) I found that the ring gaps lined up and oil just went right on through...lol The block is cherry, sitting in my garage to this day, very small ridge in the cylinders. Reminds me of the sinthetic post that was hot here a week ago. (synthetic in the daily driver ) My brother had a 460 in his 87 f-250, less mileage, regular oil...big time wear.

As far as the computer itself goes, one is in my truck doing nothing...lol
I went to the old style little box. The 88 was also the year Ford was switching from the old reliable C-6 to the new 4 speed overdrive. As far as I know, the new 4 speed is computer controlled and my computer won't accept it. So, there were a few changes...87 , the last year of 4 bbls., 88 introduced the EFI. 89 introduced the automatic overdrive for the 460.

This may not be the info you are looking for, but its something for your brain to nibble on as you get more "technical" info as fars as setting things up goes.
I hope others can chime in with thier words of wisdom...and the good old...been there done that stuff. Best of luck!

Take care, SillyBoyTroy
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2006, 02:44 PM
leadmic leadmic is offline
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If you do this go with a 93 or newer 460 the had better heads. As for the tranny the newer the better. If you can find a late modle 97 engine and trans that would be the best. If you can find a late modle 97 from Calif. or Mass. that would be even better they were Mass air, sequential.
Mark
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2006, 04:41 PM
ByronRACE ByronRACE is offline
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Default 96-97 Trucks and Vans

EFI from a 96-97 truck/van is factory EEC-V mass air sequential, and supported by both SCT and Diablo for aftermarket tuning. If you can use that EFI system as a base, then add on a more capable MAF and Injectors like a MAF/Injectors from a 2001 Ford Lightning, you'll have an EFI system capable of 450rwhp or so provided you do something about the fuel pump limitations. If your truck has two tanks/pumps, the easy fix is to install a double-pole, double-throw relay and power both pumps when engine vacuum drops. You use a hobbs switch to trigger the relay.

The factory 460 truck stuff won't make it much beyond 330rwhp before you hit the limit of the maf/injectors.

Keeping the EFI system you have (Batch-Fire, Speed Density), you can't do much to the engine before you create a tuning problem that would take many (5-20) hours to resolve in the hands of a capable tuner. Usually, this expense is more than the cost of the mass-air EFI replacement.

Option B would be to use a 95 California F150 or Bronco processor and have it completely recalibrated for a 460, and the mentioned maf/injectors. Then, repin your harness and add the wires necessary to make it SEFI and MAF. It's doable (I've done it several times) but it's a lot of work.

Byron
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  #5  
Old 07-05-2006, 07:37 PM
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Default EFI 460

Byron,
Would the Ford Racing MAF conversion kit for the 5.0/5.8 work
on my 89 F350 460 efi truck?
John
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  #6  
Old 07-05-2006, 07:47 PM
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Hey Byron, I was reading your post and saw that you refered to a 2001 lighting for mass air sensor and injectors, how big are they? I know the mass air 460 uses only 24lb. injectors wimpy, but the mass air sensor is 80MM. Also only 96-97 Calif. and Mass. were OBD2, all other states were OBD1.
Mark
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  #7  
Old 07-05-2006, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: EFI 460

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78f2504x4
Byron,
Would the Ford Racing MAF conversion kit for the 5.0/5.8 work
on my 89 F350 460 efi truck?
John

Not entirely. If it's the one I think it is, it comes with 30lb/hr injectors (limited to about 350-400rwhp), a maf capable of about the same power, an adapter harness that plugs into the OEM harness and provides the MAF wiring and an SEFI harness you lay on top of the engine and connect to the injectors, and a processor that is in the 1995 CA Truck processor family that Ford reflashed for the special MAF/Injectors. It also comes with the air box piece to mount the MAF on.

The problems:

I don't think your pinout is identical to the 5.0/5.8, but that's where I'd start. Get the pinout for your truck and the pinout for the 5.0/5.8 F150 it's supposed to support...and compare.

If it's close, you could probably modify the kit. But you're still limited to the power capabilities of the provided maf/injectors.

Then, lastly, you need to recalibrate the processor anyway because the 460 has a different firing sequence.

By the time you do all that, you could have repinned whatever you needed to repin, and built your own harness.
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  #8  
Old 07-05-2006, 09:43 PM
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Default EFI Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
Hey Byron, I was reading your post and saw that you refered to a 2001 lighting for mass air sensor and injectors, how big are they? I know the mass air 460 uses only 24lb. injectors wimpy, but the mass air sensor is 80MM. Also only 96-97 Calif. and Mass. were OBD2, all other states were OBD1.
Mark
It's not the diameter of the mass air meter that is problematic, it's the calibration of the sensor on the meter. The meter is designed to measure airflow in a specific range. If you exceed that airflow, the PCM no longer knows how much air is entering the engine and the system stops working. Ford calibrated that meter to match the capability of the injectors to optimize the resolution across the band they felt the engine would see. They didn't leave much room for growth.

The 2001 Lightning came with 42lb/hr injectors and a 90mm MAF capable of measuring about 500rwhp worth of air flow...or somewhere around 600fwhp tops. The injectors will be all done somewhere around 550-600fwhp.
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2006, 01:29 PM
leadmic leadmic is offline
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Default Re: EFI Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByronRACE
It's not the diameter of the mass air meter that is problematic, it's the calibration of the sensor on the meter. The meter is designed to measure airflow in a specific range. If you exceed that airflow, the PCM no longer knows how much air is entering the engine and the system stops working. Ford calibrated that meter to match the capability of the injectors to optimize the resolution across the band they felt the engine would see. They didn't leave much room for growth.

The 2001 Lightning came with 42lb/hr injectors and a 90mm MAF capable of measuring about 500rwhp worth of air flow...or somewhere around 600fwhp tops. The injectors will be all done somewhere around 550-600fwhp.
This is good stuff, so Byron what do think the stock 460 mas air system would top out at horsepower wise? Would installing larger injector gain much? Im just trying to get a handle on when and if I need to go with the the larger Lighting stuff. One other thing Im trying to get a handle on is I remember reading somwhwere that Ford calibrated the ECM not the Mas air meter so to chang the meter calibration you did that through the ECM not the meter its self. Is this correct or do I need better information? School me please.
Thanks Mark
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2006, 03:03 PM
ByronRACE ByronRACE is offline
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Default Re: EFI Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
This is good stuff, so Byron what do think the stock 460 mas air system would top out at horsepower wise? Would installing larger injector gain much? Im just trying to get a handle on when and if I need to go with the the larger Lighting stuff. One other thing Im trying to get a handle on is I remember reading somwhwere that Ford calibrated the ECM not the Mas air meter so to chang the meter calibration you did that through the ECM not the meter its self. Is this correct or do I need better information? School me please.
Thanks Mark
The stock 460 EFI system has 24lb/hr injectors (310-330rwhp max, about 380-400fwhp max). The air meter (if I remember correctly) will rail somewhere around that power level as well.

Actually, both the air meter and the processor are calibrated. The air meter is laser-trimmed by Ford (Hitachi) for the particular housing it is placed on to produce a known output. Then, the computer is programmed with the function so it knows how to use that output and convert it into air mass units.

So, it's like this. The air flows through the meter, and the meter outputs a voltage. Low flow (like idle) produces a signal somewhere in the 0-1V range, and higher flow (like WOT) produces a larger signal all the way up to around 4.8V or so at the limit of the meter. The voltage corresponds to air mass flowing through the meter, it's constantly changing relative to air flow but is NOT proportional. The function is basically exponential relative to air mass. The PCM uses an analog to digital converter to read the maf signal (a voltage) and turn it into a number. Then, it uses that number to look up (in a table/function) the corresponding air mass for that particular voltage. Finally, it calculates how much fuel is required...which eventually becomes injector pulsewidth.

So, not only is the function for the particular air meter inside the PCM, but there is also a table of "desired air/fuel ratios" based on engine load (think of this as strain on the engine), engine temperature, engine rpm, etc. So, that fuel calculation also has to look at these other parameters to decide how much to deliver. A cold engine wants more fuel than a hot engine. An engine under load wants more fuel than an engine at idle. And so on... Pretty simple stuff, it just takes a while to grasp it.

The next question you'll probably have is about calibrated mass-air meters that the aftermarket sells. For example, a mustang guy can go pick up a 30lb/hr mass air meter from Professional Mass Air systems, throw it on his car with some 30lb/hr injectors and it runs ok. How does that work?

The answer is "not very well". If the car came factory with 20lb/hr injectors and you install 40lb/hr injectors, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the injector pulsewidth needs to be about half of what it used to be to make the engine run. To make this happen, the MAF company creates a meter that produces a voltage corresponding to exactly half the actual air flow as stock. So, the PCM is lied to and thinks there is half the air mass. When all the math boils down at the end, the result is half the injector pulsewidth...and the car runs. This has some rather nasty side effects, however. Engine load (a value present in most important tables inside the EEC) is also HALF of what it should be. So, in a stock 5.0 that runs about 26deg total advance stock, and about 34deg at 50% load stock, suddenly you'll be running 34deg advance at WOT instead of 26 because your engine load math is all wrong. You'll also be a lot leaner, again because the engine load math is all wrong. To do this the "right way" you need to put the air meter function into the pcm so the engine load math is once again correct. I couldn't begin to tell you how many blower and nitrous guys fell victim to this and grenaded their engines; but it's a lot more than a few. They'd start out with 8deg base timing (24 total) and a 100-shot or 8lbs of boost on stock EFI...then upgrade injectors/maf to 42's with no other changes and blow the heads off the engine due to the lean mixture and advanced timing the load error caused. Then they'd bring them in for tuning with blown head gaskets and broken rings wanting a chip to stop oil and coolant consuption.

Hope that helps,
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  #11  
Old 07-06-2006, 04:00 PM
leadmic leadmic is offline
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Byron, that helps a lot but what Im confused on is for example if you made changes to a mas air 460 like more cam and ported heads and headers could you change the injector to say 30s and get away with using the stock air meter? I guess its the diffrences in air meters thats messing me up. I was under the impression that if you have a 80mm Ford meter and went to a 90mm that all you had to do was reprogram the ECM to accomidate it. Also that the air meter mesured the air flow no matter what was done to the engine, as log as the meter was large enough to allow enough air flow. :?:
Thanks again to the help
Mark
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  #12  
Old 07-06-2006, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
Byron, that helps a lot but what Im confused on is for example if you made changes to a mas air 460 like more cam and ported heads and headers could you change the injector to say 30s and get away with using the stock air meter? I guess its the diffrences in air meters thats messing me up. I was under the impression that if you have a 80mm Ford meter and went to a 90mm that all you had to do was reprogram the ECM to accomidate it. Also that the air meter mesured the air flow no matter what was done to the engine, as log as the meter was large enough to allow enough air flow. :?:
Thanks again to the help
Mark
If the computer thinks it's working with 24lb/hr injectors and you install 30's with no other changes, you will introduce a 25% fueling error to the system. When the computer does the fuel pulsewidth math, it will figure 24lb/hr injectors into the equation and pulse those 30's as if they were 24's. The mixture will initially be very rich. As the engine runs, the adaptive control will notice the extra fuel using the oxygen sensor feedback and will lean out the mixture to compensate. The compensation range of the EEC-IV is about +/- 20%, so when it's all done pulling the mixture leaner to compensate, it will probably hit the -20% fuel trim mark and notice there's still too much fuel. At that point, you will get a check engine light for "mixture too rich".

So, if you wanted to change just the injectors and leave the MAF stock, you could recalibrate the processor for 30lb/hr injectors and the stock MAF curve. This is the same way the factory does it. In that case, all is well and it will run like a factory truck. The only problem with this is that if you're making enough power to require 30lb/hr injectors, you will most likely flow enough air that the factory meter will rail at 4.8+volts before you want it to. When that happens, the fueling will remain constant as the demand continues to increase; and the engine will run lean at the top end.

What I would do is change the MAF and Injectors and Processor calibration at the same time... Then you've just done what the factory would have done, and the results will show it. While we're on the topic, I'd also like to add that you shouldn't fear large injectors as long as the tuner is confident about the calibration. For example, I'm running 160lb/hr injectors (enough for 1500+hp) in my little 435" BBF, and it idles and cruises 14.7:1 (lean, stoichiometric). It's all about the calibration. I would encourage you to buy the largest injector you can imagine yourself ever needing rather than buying injectors 3 or 4 times as you continue to modify and increase power. The largest injector you can buy without needing an external injector driver (assuming you're running factory ford EFI) is 55lb/hr. Some guys are selling these at 60's...same thing. In addition, you might want to look at the SCT 2800 MAF. It's the same housing as the 90mm lightning unit, but capable of measuring 2800kg/hr of air flow (800+hp). Building a system around these components would insure you wouldn't need to buy parts again in the event you increase power. If you're sure you won't exceed 500hp, then the 42's and Lightning maf are a perfectly good choice.

Byron
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2006, 06:04 PM
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Thanks for clearing that up Byron, you are a wealth of knowledge on EFI stuff. Two more questions if I may where is the best to get the Lighting stuff dealer? Also are the wiring connectors compatible between the two?
Thanks again
Mark
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  #14  
Old 07-06-2006, 07:05 PM
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This is why I took out the EFI in my 88 f-250 and put on a holley 750 dp. lol


This thread is packed with great info. I was given a 460 performer intake and the 750dp.....the choice for me became very clear at that point...lol

Granted, my truck no longer sees street use. Emissions? Pffffffffffffffft!

Great stuff Byron! You make it clear that by changing to a larger injector, its like changing to a larger jet. The computer only goes by know values, and by adding larger injectors and not reprogramming band width spells trouble.

I never really checked into getting the re-programming done on my 460EFI system. The price of injectors etc added up quick. Whats a baseline figure to get the reprograming, injectors, air work re-done?
I'm just curious on a ballpark figuire. (give or take $100.00 -200.00 lol )

I know the heads on my 88 had tiny little exaust ports. I can't really remember if it was just a bump where they met the exaust manifold or not?

One other question I have.... with larger injectors etc.... how much cam can you get away with, or is it a programmable issue too?

Great info! Great thread. Somebody has done thier homework! lol A+
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:44 AM
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Default MAFs

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
Thanks for clearing that up Byron, you are a wealth of knowledge on EFI stuff. Two more questions if I may where is the best to get the Lighting stuff dealer? Also are the wiring connectors compatible between the two?
Thanks again
Mark
The 2001 Lightning maf is a popular tuner part. I'd search around for the best price; the dealer can likely be beat. Also try www.fordparts.com. The 2001 lightning uses the rectangular style connector. It's available as a service item from Ford if you need it. Depending on which way you go, you may end up with a rectangular or oval style connector. Oh, www.fordfuelinjection.com likely stocks that as well.

For the focus pump, the p/n is 3s4z-9h307-ba

www.fordparts.com has this pump assembly for $96.51; it went up about 10 bucks apparently. What you'll get is the whole plastic fuel module from inside a focus tank. Take that apart and extract the pump. I'd fab a bracket and use two of them; much like a 2003 Cobra fuel tank module. If you do that, there's no question you'll have enough fuel system for even 700hp.
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