472 build for my 49 Mercury - 460 Ford Forum
460 Ford Forum  
Go Back   460 Ford Forum > Tech Topics > Engine Tech

Engine Tech A place to discuss all 385-series engine tech and theory.

460Ford.com is the premier 460 Ford Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-15-2011, 12:06 AM
D Pope's Avatar
D Pope D Pope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sask Canada
Posts: 645
D Pope First On Race Day
Default 472 build for my 49 Mercury

My brother needs a motor for his 64 Marauder so I'm letting him have the 460 I've got in the Merc now and I'm going to build a 472 to replace it. A neighbour gave me 5 460s and I already had 3 so I'm picking the one with the least wear and going from there. They're all D1VE blocks from the mid seventies.
The best one hasn't a trace of wear on the crank journals or the cylinders. (a bit of rust though) It's all standard Ford bearings so I'd guess around 75000 miles or the like.
I got .060 over Probe FPS forged pistons, Clevite moly rings, .010 King bearings and Fel-Pro gaskets. Now off to the machine shop for a rebore and crank regrind and zero deck job. Any suggestions from those in the know for the bearing and piston clearances for a street engine?
I have an Isky Z89 solid cam with 304 duration ( 264 at .050) complete with kit. I've got D0VE heads that I'm going to use Ferrea 1.76 and 2.19 stainless valves and do a home porting job. The heads will have adjustable roller tip rockers with guide plates. Compression ratio will be just about right on 10 to 1.
I'll be using a Ford SVO Performer RPM type manifold with a Holley 3 barrel and a cool air system. The exhaust will be fenderwell headers into 3" Lakes pipes.
Does all this work well together or am I missing anything? Any estimates on the HP it'll produce?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Isky Z89.jpg (87.0 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg Probe pistons.jpg (60.5 KB, 40 views)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 06-15-2011, 07:46 AM
bigblok86ranger's Avatar
bigblok86ranger bigblok86ranger is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Beloit , Wisconsin
Posts: 5,174
bigblok86ranger Spreads the gospal of BBFbigblok86ranger Spreads the gospal of BBFbigblok86ranger Spreads the gospal of BBFbigblok86ranger Spreads the gospal of BBFbigblok86ranger Spreads the gospal of BBFbigblok86ranger Spreads the gospal of BBF
Send a message via Yahoo to bigblok86ranger
Default

Are you zero decking the block? I believe those pistons will be down in the hole if you don't deck it. That cam is pretty large the RPM may not be optimum for it but may bandaid some low-end torque. I would advance the cam if possible as well to help with low end as well.
__________________
Eric Millard
bigblok86gt@yahoo.com

528ci of N/A power

Circle R Racing Engines

Trick Chassis
Beloit,WI 53511
608-313-9197

http://www.trickchassis.com/

"LOL, WE DONT RACE DYNOS" Quoted for the truth!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 06-15-2011, 11:34 AM
D Pope's Avatar
D Pope D Pope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sask Canada
Posts: 645
D Pope First On Race Day
Default

I mentioned zero deck in the post but you must have missed that part. I figured the cam would be a little wilder than needed but the price was right and with a four speed that's easier to use than with an automatic. How much advance would you recommend on the cam?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 06-15-2011, 01:59 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX.
Posts: 3,243
68xr7cat Driving a Ford
Default

You do have a mismatch with that cam. If it is ground "straight up" advance it 4 degrees. Many times cams are ground advanced, so you need to look at the cam card to see.

I'd suggest selling that cam and finding something milder. The pistons you have I assume are the dished ones which with a zero deck and 75cc chamber still will be in the 9's compressionwise and that cam is going to want more CR. You could cut the heads down some, but again better to get a different cam.

As for clearances probe recommends I beleive about .004"- .005" on that piston. Rods .0025" and mains .003" will work well for a performance build like yours. If the crank is really nice many be cheaper to have it polished and buy new bearings than have it cut. You likely can run the std. oil pump and be fine at those clearances, but a HV, better pick up and a larger pan with some baffling won't hurt and is good insurance.

I'd also go over the drain backs in the heads to make sure the oil has a clear drainback path. Check the drainback match up that the block, many times it is off and can be a restriction. You don't have to go crazy with the drainbacks, just a little masssaging and making sure the passages are lined up will go a long way towards insuring the oil is returning properly.

Steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 06-15-2011, 06:43 PM
D Pope's Avatar
D Pope D Pope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sask Canada
Posts: 645
D Pope First On Race Day
Default

The piston sheet says 9.7 compression without the zero deck so about a .030 cut should bring it up to 10 to 1.
I've got a rear sump pan and pump off an F350 and planned on adding some baffling and maybe a windage tray.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 06-15-2011, 07:54 PM
95lightiningguy 95lightiningguy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: N.Little Rock AR
Posts: 941
95lightiningguy First On Race Day
Send a message via Yahoo to 95lightiningguy
Default

With the probe dished pistons in a stock bottom end the machine shop took off .035 and they are still .012 in the hole on my engine. Best to have the shop measure and take off whats needed. imo
__________________
89 F150 351w powered
95 F150 300 I6 5 speed soon to be 460 powered lightining clone
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 06-15-2011, 08:04 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX.
Posts: 3,243
68xr7cat Driving a Ford
Default

Yeah, that 9.74 they list with a 74cc chamber, no mention of deck height. I ran it thru my calculator. That piston has a 24.4cc dish. I've measured this one in the past and it is what they say.

Anyway, zero deck, .041 gasket, 75cc, CR is 9.83. You will need to get the chamber down to 73cc to hit 10:1. The early heads are normally 75 - 78cc. I'd say give them a clean up cut and just live with a high nine CR, another .1 or .2 is not going to change much. Be the better route then ending up with possible intake fitment issues with all that cutting LOL

Steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 06-15-2011, 08:09 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX.
Posts: 3,243
68xr7cat Driving a Ford
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95lightiningguy View Post
With the probe dished pistons in a stock bottom end the machine shop took off .035 and they are still .012 in the hole on my engine. Best to have the shop measure and take off whats needed. imo
Yep X2!

Had that issue here too. We used the numbers off spec sheet on mine and degree decked the block. Ended up about .015 in the hole. In my case pistons were .010" off... (was shooting for .005" in the hole). Anyway used a .027" cometic head gasket and called it good. Always best to mock 'em up in the block!

Steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 06-15-2011, 09:42 PM
D Pope's Avatar
D Pope D Pope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sask Canada
Posts: 645
D Pope First On Race Day
Default

That's kind of what I was thinking. Bore the block, then install the crank and the end pistons and take your measurements. Any specs I've seen just give a range of deck heights so how could you pick one without doing the actual measuring thing?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 06-16-2011, 01:16 AM
95lightiningguy 95lightiningguy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: N.Little Rock AR
Posts: 941
95lightiningguy First On Race Day
Send a message via Yahoo to 95lightiningguy
Default

Apparently if you know the formula. Thats what my machinist did then found out that an advertised deck height for a Ford 460 is just a guideline, lol.
__________________
89 F150 351w powered
95 F150 300 I6 5 speed soon to be 460 powered lightining clone
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 06-16-2011, 01:37 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX.
Posts: 3,243
68xr7cat Driving a Ford
Default

Guideline??? LOL in theory if they say it is X, it should be X. In reality, you have to check everything as the one time you do not it will bit you in the ***...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 06-16-2011, 08:16 PM
D Pope's Avatar
D Pope D Pope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sask Canada
Posts: 645
D Pope First On Race Day
Default

On the zero deck thing, I was thinking if you started with a motor with the shorter deck you'd be less likely to have intake issues. On second thoughts, it wouldn't make any difference. On any of the blocks, everything else has to be in the same place, so when you end up with a certain deck height, the only difference will be how much of a cut you have to take.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 06-16-2011, 08:42 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX.
Posts: 3,243
68xr7cat Driving a Ford
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Pope View Post
On the zero deck thing, I was thinking if you started with a motor with the shorter deck you'd be less likely to have intake issues. On second thoughts, it wouldn't make any difference. On any of the blocks, everything else has to be in the same place, so when you end up with a certain deck height, the only difference will be how much of a cut you have to take.
As the deck drops either because you cut the block or the head the heads move closer together. You can cut the intake face of the head to compensate, but the intake bolt holes are where they are and that is it! Sometimes may have to slot some of the intake bolt holes, sometimes you can use a thicker gasket too. Sometime you can have the heads closer together and it will raise up the intake a bit and get better port alignment. All depends on what you are doing. Sometimes everything just works out fine.

Most don't spend enough time on intake fitment. Sometimes will pull an intake and find it was sucking oil at the bottom as hitting more on the top then bottom or find the ports are off top to bottom. Most important is to get the port roof lined up and make sure gasket seals.

You also should check your head bolts to make sure they will not bottom. Had one which was cut done quite a bit, about .130" or so between head and block and that one did need just a touch taken off the head bolts.

Steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 07-02-2011, 12:01 AM
D Pope's Avatar
D Pope D Pope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sask Canada
Posts: 645
D Pope First On Race Day
Default

I'm going to use Ferrea stainless valves in the D0VE heads and have a question about which size to use. In the listings they use the 2.25 intakes with the 1.71 exhausts or else the 2.19 intakes with the 1.76 exhausts. Is there any reason not to use the 2.25 intakes with the 1.76 exhausts?
I'm going to port the heads per Scotty's site after I get the valves.
On another issue, which valve springs would be better, Comp Cams or Lunati Voodoos? Both kinds are around 320 pounds per inch spring rate. The recommended Isky springs are 400 pounds per inch rate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 07-02-2011, 08:37 AM
deluxetruck's Avatar
deluxetruck deluxetruck is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 229
deluxetruck Driving a Ford
Default

My 472 is similar. A little bit less duration and not a straight pattern, DOVE's with 2.25/1.76 Ferrea's, and the same pistons. It runs awesome. One thing of note is that these pistons are something like 100 grams lighter than a comparable speed-pro. That goes a long way in keeping stock rods alive at rpm imho. With the Ferrea's I ended up with about a 1.950 installed height using .050" thick cups and Howards standard titanium retainers. I use a Lunati spring, I believe the number is 73121. The whole setup nets me 140# on the seat and 370# over the nose. I've had it to 6900 rpm at a pull, and it controls my valvetrain just fine.

Interestingly, my pistons also ended up around .012" down. My heads are 74cc, and with a standard .040ish fel-pro I'm at 9.98:1. I cc'd a cylinder and the heads myself, it's 9.98:1. It runs great on pump gas, but my dizzy is a little aggressive. I keep my foot out of it below 2500 rpm if it's hot.

-Jared
__________________
1977 F250 Highboy, 79 D60/10.25 Sterling w/4:10's, 32 spline NP435, 205, 472", 1410's rear and 1350's front and middle. Daily driver/weekend sled puller.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFt89WXH5BM
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the 460 Ford Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:10 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.