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  #31  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:28 PM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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Thanks dan. That sounds like a pretty easy way to get it right. That'll be tomorrow morning's fun since I'm not going to work due to a orthopedic surgeon visit for my torn ankle ligaments. I think ill be having surgery sometime soon. sounds fun eh?

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  #32  
Old 08-16-2012, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanE View Post
I don't pay any attention where the rotor is pointing. I am interested that the vacuum canister is in a position where it has the most travel left to right. Drop the distributor gentley into the hole until it stops its downward travel. Bump the starter a few times and it will drop in the rest of the way. Secure the distributor loosley with the distributor clamp. Take the #1 spark plug out of its hole and use your finger to plug the spark plug hole. Roll the engine over until you feel compression building up against your finger. Continue to roll the engine over until the timing pointer points somewhere between 12* to 16* on the harmonic balancer.Put the spark plug back in. With the vacuum canister in the middle of its left to right travel, choose the distributor cap post that is nearest the rotor and that post is where the #1 spark plug wire goes. Now put the spark plug wires on the cap according to the firing order, wiring counter clockwise. Move the canister counter clockwise as far as it will go. Turn the key on. Put a screwdriver into the end of the #1 spark plug wire and hold the screwdriver shaft about 1//6" from some metal for ground and slowley turn the distributor clockwise until a spark jumps from the screwdriver shaft to the grounding metal. Holding the distributor in the position where the spark jumped, lock the distributor down. Put the #1 spark plug wire onto its plug and the engine will fire up and in time. Use a timing light to fine tune the timing where you want it. Thats how I do it and it works. A lot easier to do than explain. I hope this helps you, Dan
Thanks again dan, just cranked her back up and she runs great! I appreciate your help. Didnt take 15mins following your instructions.



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  #33  
Old 08-16-2012, 10:58 AM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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I set it at about 12.2(its right past the 12° mark, my marks represent 2° each)at idle. Seems to be nice and smooth there. This sound about right to you guys?

The shop that it went to for its tuneup says they dont exactly remember what they set it at but they think it was 11° or 12°.


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Last edited by superacerc; 08-16-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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  #34  
Old 08-16-2012, 10:16 PM
DanE DanE is offline
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Where you set the timing on the harmonic balancer depends on how many degrees of advance is comming from the distrubitor. To find that out, using a timing light and set the timing to 0* on the balancer. Make sure that you disconect the vacuum hose from the canister and plug the hose so that the engine cannot suck air through the hose. Idle the engine down to get below the rpm where the distrubitor starts to produce ignition advance. Actually, it's after you have done the previous 2 steps that you set the timing to 0*. Now rev the engine slowly until the distrubitor quits throwing advance and mark on the balancer where the timing stops advancing. Now figure how many degrees the distrubtior threw by measureing from 0* to your mark by extrapolating the distance to degrees or just by reading the degrees if you have installed a timing tape on your balancer. Or maybe your balancer is already marked in degrees so you can just read the degrees. At any rate, subtract the degrees the distributor threw from 38* and the remaining degrees is the number of degrees you set with your timing light onto the harmonic balancer. Unplug the vacuum hose and reconnect the hose to the canister and set the idle where you want it. The reason I chose 38* total is because you have stock heads and low compression. 38* will be a good baseline until dyno tuning proves what is best. I would think that the distributor should be done throwing timing by 2500 rpm to 2800 rpm. If it is more rpms than that, recurve the distributor. Dan

Last edited by DanE; 08-17-2012 at 06:16 AM.
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2012, 09:47 AM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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My truck isn't going to run at 0° timing. Am i misinterpreting that? Are you just saying look where it's at now and and idle down till it has mechanicaly undadvanced all the way?

I have timing marks out to 40°. I've got it set now between 12 and 13° base timing. When the vacuum advance kicks in all the way at low rpm it's adding about 10°-11°. So at low revs(1300ish) no load I'm at about 30°(give or take 2° for hard to read marks) total(very little mechanical advance kicked in yet).

MSD Says that The Vacuum advance is set at 10° from the factory and it seems close to that.

here is a graph of what the centrifugal advance is set at from off the instructions:



It's a bit slow and hits 21° total at 4k RPM. Should i get the kit and switch it out for one of these that are quicker?




Also what's the max degrees I should let it advance?

It's hard to tell in the photo but you can change the bump stop to limit total timing and swap springs to let it in faster or slower.

Whoa that's alot of things in that post. Here's the sum up for the current config:

10° Vacuum advance possible
21° Mechanical advance possible@ 4000
(I typically cruise at 2500 rpm which sits me about 60mph so i never see all
21 centrifugal on the highway but will see them in a quick acceleration shifting later.)

12°-13° Base timing

Theoretical timing at Cruise (60mph) is
13° base +
10°Vac +
12° centrifigal= (according to chart) and

35° TOTAL (assuming vacuum is still operating fully)

I would imagine at 4000 rpm the vacuum isn't operating fully (i'd never be going this quick cruising anyway) so the max timing there would be around 31° + any vacuum advance that could still occur.


Edit: After all that, assuming the dist. is acting as stated in the instructions from the factory my max centrifugal advance is 21°. So I'd subtract that from 38 which would give me a max base timing of 17?

I figure if I go that high my vacuum advance will hit the low 40's around 3k while cruising. 13° keeps it right at 38 for worst case scenario. I think it'll do about right where its at.
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Last edited by superacerc; 08-17-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-17-2012, 01:42 PM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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Seems everything is running as expected. I'm not getting any signs of too much timing, but I did get noticably better mileage today.

I think im a tad low on my type f cause its hesitating to go in gear immediately upon bring shifted to D. I bought some extra and will give that a look this evening. I did spill a bit when I swapped modulators a while back.

After the intake switch and dyno tuning I think it'll be right as rain.

Thanks again Dan for the suggestions. Theyre really paying off so far.

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  #37  
Old 08-17-2012, 02:39 PM
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Now, what I am about to say is with all due respect. Listen up! You want 38* total without that lovely canister. Take the vacuum hose off the canister, plug the hose and forget the canister for now. Seeing as how we now know that the distributor is throwing 21*, set the timing on the balancer at 17*. Now you have 38* total. Unplug the vacuum hose and connect it to the canister. Done. Now you have a baseline. You have not been running enough timing in that engine. If the engine tends to ping a little, use different bushings in the distributor so the distributor will put out 24* and put 14* on the crank. You may have to juggle a little. I am willing to bet that when you get on the dyno that combo will want 40* total. But that's just a guess because I don't know what's in that engine. Further more, you want the timing all in by at least 3000rpm, not 4000rpm. Keep at it, you will get it right. Dan
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2012, 05:01 PM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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Got it. Ill put it up to 17° tomorrow morning. Ill also order the springs to swap the centrufugal advance out for that setup on the top left of that second set of graphs. looks like that one hits 21° at 3000 and will stay there with the bushing thsts already in it.

Getting there. Thanks.

Edit: Ordered The MSD centrifigal springs kit so i can adjust it right. Should come tuesday.

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Last edited by superacerc; 08-17-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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  #39  
Old 08-17-2012, 10:49 PM
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How far up the rpm range will vacuum advance generally hold all in? Does it get slightly weaker the higher your cruising rpm? I understand at wot its going to revert to mechanical only but,
I guess what im trying to ask is at 3000 rpm cruise level will it typically be able to hold the entire ten degrees or does it diminish little by little at higher rpm levelsto maybe 7 or something less?

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  #40  
Old 08-18-2012, 09:22 AM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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All I can say is WOW, That made a huge difference! I set it at 17 and then checked the mechanical advance with the timing light at idle. It's doing exactly what I described above. In the 3000 rpm range i'm getting in the low 30 degrees area and pegs out in the high 30 somethings close to 4000 rpm. I'll get those springs in there so it sits around 38 total out at 3000 rpm. Wow....

Low end throttle response has picked up a huge amount. I don't have any hesitation anymore either.
Will that new intake improve the low end torque even more?



I'm actually getting happy about this engine. I was kinda bummed about it when I first got it running in the truck cause it was under powered and not tuned well. It's coming up to expectations now.

With 3/4 throttle in Drive now the 1-2 shift spins the tires. It also has much less engine vibration.

My idle circuit still needs adjustment cause that ported vacuum is picking up vacuum at Idle but as soon as I put it in gear the load takes it back to normal. So the only downside to the vacuum advance right now is that it causes a high idle in Park or Neutral (it's not crazy high maybe 1100-1200.) At idle in gear it drops to 650 with the air on. 750 with the air off.

Keep throwing suggestions at me Dan I appreciate it a bunch!


Edit: just talked to my dad who originally picked the engine up and he said it was tuned in the dyno with a base of 19°.
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Last edited by superacerc; 08-18-2012 at 09:51 AM.
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  #41  
Old 08-18-2012, 10:03 AM
DanE DanE is offline
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That vacuum advance canister is an ingenious device and it helps the engine be more efficient in low load (when the engine is producing vacuum) situations. You now have it and it will do its job. It is of no concern at this point. What is of concern is how much timing the centrifugal advance mechanism in the distributor is producing and at what rpm it stops producing more advance. And remember that whenever you play with the timing, the vacuum hose to the canister is to be disconnected and pluged. It is a non player when you are dealing with the timing in the distributor and the timing on the harmonic balancer! When you set the timing on the harmonic balancer at 17*, rev the engine up past 4000rpm to make sure that you are not producing more than the 38* to 40* we are shooting for in this case. In a different case, in my high comprression, P51 headed engine, it likes 29* total. In your case, the more timing you can run on the harmonic balancer, the better it will be to a point. And at 17*, you are approching that point. The more timing you can run on the balancer, the peppier your engine will be. Than at idle and cruise situations, your engine will like the added timing the canister will pull in. Deb and I were at the Woodward Dream Cruise til late last night and today we are going to the Flint Back To The Bricks Cruise to see if we can smell some race gas. It is amazing to see the huge number of great hot rods of all kinds that are out there. And the people, there will probably be a million people at the Woodward Dream Cruise today. Best, Dan
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  #42  
Old 08-18-2012, 10:12 AM
DanE DanE is offline
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Yes, the performer manifold will increase your low end and mid range torque even more. It"s good to see you getting hapy with that engine. Remember, an engine like yours, if tuned right, is a torque rip snorter. Now get those flow masterrs off of that truck. Dan
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  #43  
Old 08-18-2012, 10:56 AM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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Sounds great then. Torque = fun for sure.

Ill see about adjusting that exhaust after I get the motor right. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help.

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  #44  
Old 08-18-2012, 02:50 PM
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You could probably forgo the dyno tune if money is tight and buy a wide band oxygen sensor. That would allow you to tune your carb for idle, cruise, and wide open throttle. Another learning experience for you, but well worth it for your ability to tune your own engines. I like the hands on approach as it allows me to know exactly what I have. That is one of the reasons I like solid lifters. By periodically checking the valve lash, I can tell a lot about what is going on in my engine. Not to mention that solid lifters allow better valve event control for increased effifciency. You are ok with your cam and lifters in your build. I am talking the O2 senser after you install the performer intake. Best Dan
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  #45  
Old 08-18-2012, 03:01 PM
superacerc superacerc is offline
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I'll be ok with the dyno. I'd like to be in attendance to learn while they do it though. I'm going to try and be there while it happens. I like the idea of the 02 sensor but was having trouble finding the exact parts I need. I know holley makes one but in jegs it's hard to find the right kit that will work for me. If I do have the exhaust changed up I could have the bungs welded in then. I think it will take 2 sensors one for each side right? Then you have to have the unit that they go to that sends up the 02 info. Then the gauge.

I'll look around some more.
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Last edited by superacerc; 08-18-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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