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Old 04-29-2013, 06:58 PM
robertaccucolor robertaccucolor is offline
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Default 4.5 stoker question

I have a dove A block and wanting to build a 545 drag motor, I have questions after reading that a ford truck block should be used for its longer cly wall. should I be concerned or will a special piston skirt help or is there anything that can be done running a dove block. Has anyone had problems running this combo turning 7200 rpm

Last edited by robertaccucolor; 04-29-2013 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:19 PM
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I would go w/D0ve because of strength in the mains and use a 6.8 rod.jmpo
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BBFmavrick View Post
I would go w/D0ve because of strength in the mains and use a 6.8 rod.jmpo


X2

I would 4-bolt it and use 6.8" instead of a 6.7"
Thats what I did in my 557"

Could also use a 4.3" crank,
Oops but looks like you already got the 4.5"

FWIW Mark
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:25 PM
DaveMcLain DaveMcLain is offline
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4.500 6.700 is really no problem at all in a DOVE block it'll work just fine. The differences in strength between a DOVE and any other production block are not a big factor.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:32 AM
robertaccucolor robertaccucolor is offline
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Default 4.5 stroker

so I am going to use the dove and 4.5 crank, thank you all for responding
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveMcLain View Post
4.500 6.700 is really no problem at all in a DOVE block it'll work just fine. The differences in strength between a DOVE and any other production block are not a big factor.
No,but the 4bolt main caps sure are easier on the thick webs.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BBFmavrick View Post
No,but the 4bolt main caps sure are easier on the thick webs.
That's why they were cast that way at the factory but putting a set of Blue Thunders on a non DOVE block isn't really that much harder. All in all the production design is good and the main webbing is about as strong as the cylinders so if you need more strength an SVO block is a practical choice.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMcLain View Post
That's why they were cast that way at the factory but putting a set of Blue Thunders on a non DOVE block isn't really that much harder. All in all the production design is good and the main webbing is about as strong as the cylinders so if you need more strength an SVO block is a practical choice.
The caps for thin web blocks usually cost more,shops normally will charge more as you need to mill the block. The block webbing where the splayed cap outer bolts anchor is thinner and sometimes you will see the blocks crack there. Some have used smaller outer bolts for this reason. All reasons in favor of the D0VE-A block

IMO if you are going to go to the expense of a 4 bolt conversion use the block designed for it - D0VE-A. Two bolt cap walk is the reason to make the conversion. An SVO or Eliminator block is a great option and long term a good way to go, but if you don't have the extra money a D0VE-A block with 4 bolt mains is the best alternative for those who are at a point that cap walk is an issue. When you add everything up and will cost the same or less than the thin web production blocks overall.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:07 PM
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I ran my 557 with a D1ve block with a 4.5 stroke and 6.7 rods for years with no problems. Never went with 4 bolt main caps because it was too expensive for machine work, AND the fact that the webs tend to crack where the splayed bolts go like 68xr7cat said. The set up had a tunnel with dual quads and a big cam, on the dyno made 836, and 718 at 7000. Just my thoughts......
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:31 PM
Lem Evans Lem Evans is offline
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Like dave said.... with a race only engine it aint a big deal. It would be if you were in your truck that was driven to work and back every day.

The D0VE mains are a better platform to install 4 bolt caps on...but... the 2 bolt blocks I've seen crack have not done so out by the pan rail where the D0VE are thicker. All have been from a main bolt hole to the cam bearing tunnel.....mostly at #2 main saddle.

Cap walk is cap walk and it is something most people can live with....untill.

Looks like the D0VE 2 bolt blocks were a design that offered Ford the option to install either main cap to the block....4 or 2 bolt.
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:46 PM
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Thank you Dave McLain & Lem for the facts. It's way past time for there to be any more misinformation about this subject.
Paul Kane has posted the info on a very inexpensive and very proven way to 4 bolt a non DOVE block. It cost me just over $300 each to do them, this includes the caps, bolts, line bore and hone. Several others on this forum have used the info that Paul provided and are very happy with the results.
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Last edited by Vandy; 04-30-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:32 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lem Evans View Post
Like dave said.... with a race only engine it aint a big deal. It would be if you were in your truck that was driven to work and back every day.

The D0VE mains are a better platform to install 4 bolt caps on...but... the 2 bolt blocks I've seen crack have not done so out by the pan rail where the D0VE are thicker. All have been from a main bolt hole to the cam bearing tunnel.....mostly at #2 main saddle.

Cap walk is cap walk and it is something most people can live with....untill.

Looks like the D0VE 2 bolt blocks were a design that offered Ford the option to install either main cap to the block....4 or 2 bolt.
Just to be clear I was talking about a block converted to 4 bolt mains NOT a 2 bolt. Lem you know full well main reason to convert a block to 4 bolt is because of cap walk.

Last edited by 68xr7cat; 04-30-2013 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:08 PM
68xr7cat 68xr7cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandy View Post
Thank you Dave McLain & Lem for the facts. It's way past time for there to be any more misinformation about this subject.
Paul Kane has posted the info on a very inexpensive and very proven way to 4 bolt a non DOVE block. It cost me just over $300 each to do them, this includes the caps, bolts, line bore and hone. Several others on this forum have used the info that Paul provided and are very happy with the results.
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Bull Crap??? LOL here is your picture. As for your conversion method, was NOT what Dave McLain was talking about and BT caps are not cheap.

Regarding the outer bolt size anyone with common sense would understand drilling a hole in a web weakens it and when you look at the section width in that area any machinest worth anything would understand what I an talking about and why some prefer to use a smaller diameter bolt when converting a thin web block.

As for your method still more work than converting a D0VE-A just saves money on the caps and for a lot of guys, right or wrong when they see those little spacers it is a hard sell. They think it is something someone did in their basement. Not to mention you still have less material in that area.

Regardless seems to still be a good number of D0VE-A blocks around at reasonable prices (not everyone asks a premium...), so why bother with a thin web block unless you have a lot of money in it.
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2013, 10:45 PM
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XR7cat I never thought Dave McLain had ever seen the conversion I have done ? Second issue is I don't have a basement !! Third is I'm not selling anything to anyone !! It's just free info that might be of interest to anyone but you. I do not sell blocks 4 bolted or not and do not offer that service.
The pic is of a major explosion and not related in any way to a 4 bolt conversion, and is a far stretch from THEY CRACK
I think on the next block I 4 bolt I will use 1/2 " bolts in the outer holes as mine go far into the block well past the damage in the pic.
Does anyone have a pic of a cracked main web on a splayed 4 bolt conversion on a non DOVE block.

Last edited by Vandy; 04-30-2013 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68xr7cat View Post
Bull Crap??? LOL here is your picture.

I personally inspected parts from this engine, and this failure is not due to 4-bolting a passenger car block.

This image first appeared on another engine forum in a thread in support of the OP's general statement that OEM passenger car blocks cannot hold big horsepower, and he supported his claim with several images of carnage including this one. The images are so "over-the-top impressive" that the thread went viral, so to speak, and everyone went ga-ga over them and no-one questioned the claims.

However, upon actual inspecton of the engine it was discovered that when this engine was built, parts were put in BACKWARDS by the engine builder which made for all kinds of problems including an interference fit, and so the crankshaft was effectively being hammered against of the lower end and main caps....which ultimately took out the main webbing. That's what really caused this block failure, not a measely 850 hp (or whatever it was) on a typical 4-bolt conversion.

As someone who campaigns the use of OEM passenger car blocks in high performance builds, I have always been offended by this image being mistakenly utilized, and not only used out of context but also stated as fact when it is absolutely not true in any way whatsoever. And it further disgusts me that the OP never "manned up" and admitted he screwed up after he was told of the horrid oversights in his build.

This wasn't the blocks fault at all, nor was it due to a the modifications done to the block. Claiming otherwise is either misinformation or a downright lie (depending on who is saying it).

Paul

P.S.: My biz partner, Billy, ran >90+% nitromethane through an unfilled D1VE std-web block with a 4-bolt conversion, generating thousands of horsepower, and did so down a 1-1/3 mile track for 7 years with zero problems. And while a feat unto itself it is nevertheless 100% fact.

P.P.S.: Don't drag me into this thread, Steve, I'm only straightening out the truth about the image posted and nothing more. The claim behind the pic is bogus. I still have pictures of the culprit parts from this engine.
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