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Old 01-24-2006, 03:29 PM
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Default Cylinder Head Pecking Order

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460 heads
September 27 2005 at 4:04 AM
No score for this post Mike Koricic (Login mkoricic)
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Theres alot of talk about heads on the site. So I thought Id ask about the different head choices. I want to know what order/rank you guys would rate them, hp potential/flow. In my reading the #1Thor heads #2 Alum. CJ #3 Aheads? etc... I guessing here so someone with some knowledge let me know..

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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.116.130 The BBF Cylinder Head Pecking Order
No score for this post September 27 2005, 12:33 PM

Mike,

We've done this before and I think maybe somebody put it in the Engine Build Section, but if not I'll go over it again.

It helps if you divide all the heads into four major families. The four families are;

I. Hemi Heads;
top to bottom the order is;
1. B-441
2&3 (tie) A-441, and the billet Indy Cylinder Head Hemi
4. Original Boss 429 production heads.

II. Pro Stock Wedge Heads;
Fords FRPP C-460, D-460, & E-460 heads. Also Profiler's C-460 Replacement head. TFS's B-460 Bastard Pro Stock heads, and the Blue Thunder Thor head belong in this family. The pecking order is debatable, and certainly the size of the engine that you intend to use them on comes into play here. I'd suggest that the order from top to bottom may be;
1. Blue Thunder Thor for big inch wedges 650+ CID
2. E-460 FRPP for NHRA Pro Stock
3. D-460 FRPP
4&5 (tie) C-460 Replacement head or FRPP C-460 are on the same level.
6. TFS B-460 Bastard Pro Stock heads

III. A-460 Heads;
Original TFS and Ford Motorsport heads, also the new style TFS A-460 heads, the Eliminator 900 Series A-460, and the EX 514 heads. The EX 514 is available in cast iron also. The ranking on these heads is again debatable but I'd say at the top of the list we have a 3-way tie with the;
1,2,&3 New style TFS A-460, EX514 and the Eliminator 900 series.
4. The older TFS and Ford Motorsports A-460 castings.

IV. The standard Ford Production Heads;
In this family we have several heads including both cast iron OEM production and aftermarket alum. heads. I'd suggest that the pecking order would be;
1. FRPP Kaase designed SCJ and the soon to be released Kaase designed P-51 head.
2. The Blue Thunder "B" head which is the one with the raised exhaust port and the Chevy style flange pattern.
3&4 (tied) Blue Thunder with the raised exhaust port and Ford bolt pattern, and the TFS Street Heat head, again with a raised exhaust port and Ford bolt pattern.
5,6,7,8,9&10 Big log jam here, but we have the old Ford A-429 heads, the Blue Thunder CJ head with standard exhaust port location, the old style TFS CJ head, and the three different versions of the Edelbrock RPM/CJ heads.
11,12&? We have the cast iron production DOOE-R CJ head and the DOVE heads along with others such as the Police Interceptor head and etc. I am not saying these cast iron heads are any worse than the big batch of alum. heads I listed right above. They just heavier!

Probally more importantly than the pecking order of the heads is who you choose to do the valve job, the porting and flow testing of the heads. In other words, the quality of the work. I have a seen good quality Blue Thunder "B" heads outflow poor quality EX 514 heads for example and they are in two different families. What I'm saying is, a head that is lower in the pecking order, can surpass a head that is above it due to being properly prepped.

Hope this helps,
Charlie



This message has been edited by c.evans from IP address 205.188.117.68 on Nov 2, 2005 7:29 PM




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JP3
(Login 349MagnumRT)
68.15.253.169 Maybe you should.....
No score for this post September 27 2005, 12:41 PM

break it down by uses like:

Strip
Street/Strip
Street
RV
Tractor
Well Motor

For those of us that still don't know what you just said. LOL

What about OOTB? Alot of us guys just want to buy a head, bolt it on and go. Sans porting, etc.




-------------------------------
'86 Ranger 5.0L/T5 soon to be 7.5L/C6

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Mike K
(Login mkoricic)
68.13.115.252 CJ heads
No score for this post September 27 2005, 11:56 PM

I am have a set of after market aluminum CJ heads and was wondering if those are any good and what they need done to them. Thanks guys

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PSF
(Login ProStreetFairlane)
134.67.6.24 Thanks Charlie
No score for this post November 3 2005, 12:40 PM

you seem to be very knowledgable on the subject Are the aluminum CJ heads better (other than being much lighter) than the iron? What are the pros and cons on using CJ heads. Was also wondering what all the prefixes mean A, C, etc? Thanks

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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.117.9 Generally Speaking
No score for this post November 3 2005, 11:33 PM

the alum. heads are better than the cast iron heads, because all the alum. heads have a better exhaust port. They flow more because they are designed better. IMO any cast iron OEM production head needs serious help in regards to the exhaust flow. They are "choked" from the factory. There are several guys who are good cast iron Ford head porters. Three that seem to be working miracles that are on this 385 Forum are Bret Powell, Scott Johnston and Scott Vincent.

The intake ports of our Ford OEM cast iron heads and aftermarket cast alum. Ford heads are much closer in parity than the exhaust ports. Nobody needs to make any apologies for our OEM cast iron intake ports. They're good! Especially the DOOE-R CJ head.

As for the letters A, B, C, and etc. This is just Ford's nomenclature for distinguishing early or original versions of parts from later versions of parts. "A" is generally the first version of a head and then "B" is the second, "C" is the third and so on. Most always the later versions have some design change/upgrade in order to imporve the part.

For example the first Pro Stock wedge head back in the early/mid 80's was the A-460, then we had B-460 heads, and by the mid 90's we had the C-460 head, then D-460 and the current NHRA legal Pro Stock head for Ford is the E-460 head. That's where we are at now. Maybe Lem or Gary Blair can give you a better answer on this than I can.

Hope this helps,
Charlie

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Paul Kane
(Login PaulKane)
66.245.0.105 BBF Head Heirarchy
No score for this post September 28 2005, 4:00 AM

13. Cast iron D3VE-A2A
12. Cast iron DOVE-C
11. Cast iron DOOE-R CJ
10. The various Edelbrock heads, the older Ford alum, A-429 CJ heads, the TFS CJ head, and the Blue Thunder CJ head (stock exhaust port location)
9. The Blue Thunder CJ raised exhaust port (Ford) (a little better)
8. The Blue Thunder with Chevy Ex flange.
7. Ford SVO SCJ head(Kasse)
6. Older TFS or Ford Motorsport A-460 heads
5. New TFS A-460 heads, EX514 head, & IDT Eliminator "A" head
4. Older Ford Motorsport bastard Pro Stock heads
3. New Ford SVO C-460 heads, & RFE Profiler "C" heads.
2. D-460 & E-460 Pro Stock heads; & Blue Thunder "Thor" heads,
1. Then the Hemi heads.

(As once laid out to me by Charlie Evans. The grouping by family makes good sense, though...)

Paul





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This message has been edited by PaulKane from IP address 66.245.0.105 on Sep 28, 2005 4:06 AM
This message has been edited by PaulKane from IP address 66.245.0.105 on Sep 28, 2005 4:05 AM
This message has been edited by PaulKane from IP address 66.245.0.105 on Sep 28, 2005 4:02 AM




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Aaron
(Login pro68)
67.17.201.100 Paul
No score for this post September 28 2005, 7:53 AM

Could you add a horsepower level to each head possibly???
Thx
Aaron

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mikep
(Login ferdman)
69.111.78.112 Re: BBF Head Heirarchy
No score for this post November 3 2005, 1:54 PM

Is there a difference between the new "C" heads and older one's?


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Gary Blair
(Login GB3351)
216.207.70.45 The older C and D-460's had the valves spread .030.
No score for this post November 3 2005, 9:06 PM

Some valve guide failures and subsequent cylinder wall interference on smaller bores caused Ford to move the exhaust .030 closer to the intake.
The older head can accept a 2.520 intake valve. You can use a later C-460 and move the guide and seat over as well like the older head.

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Gary Blair
(Login GB3351)
216.207.70.45 Wilfred has the stands to fit either head. n/m
No score for this post November 3 2005, 9:17 PM

n/m

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Gary Blair
(Login GB3351)
216.207.70.45 Paul, the C-460 and D-460 are the same casting just drilled
No score for this post November 3 2005, 9:07 PM

with a different fastner size and pattern.

This message has been edited by GB3351 from IP address 216.207.70.45 on Nov 3, 2005 9:08 PM




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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
152.163.101.9 Bump; Cylinder Head Pecking Order n/m
No score for this post November 2 2005, 5:11 PM

n/m

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chilly460
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Forum Owner
199.244.214.30 Re: Bump; Cylinder Head Pecking Order n/m
No score for this post November 3 2005, 1:13 PM

Hey Charlie, I just added this to the Cylinder Head post under the Engine Build Forum so you won't have to repeatedly post it.



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Charlie Evans
(Login c.evans)
64.12.117.9 Thanks Chilly ! n/m
No score for this post November 3 2005, 11:35 PM

n/m

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  #2  
Old 09-06-2008, 07:40 PM
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Default head list

G'day guys, would it be possible to add a date that the heads were first produced to the list, I now the factory cast ones are idendifiable by the part number but a date for everything else would be a helpful.
Thanks.
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  #3  
Old 05-10-2011, 07:22 PM
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I think it depends on how the heads are worked and how the engine is blueprinted. We have a set of Motorsport A-460 heads that more than out perform the C- head motors of the same size. Engine systems told us that the way our heads work the only head that could improve our combo is to go with the thor heads. We run the 1/8th mile so we are more concerned with torque not HP. Our next project will be an 654 so the thor heads will be a must. Just our 2 cents worth.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:18 PM
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Here is a "C" thing to think about.
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:57 AM
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Hey guys,

Can anyone tell me why the chev exhaust ports flow better than the ford ones? I see the aftermarket heads have the option of both (chev ports on a ford??) and that the chev ports flow better.

Cheers
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needfordspeed View Post
Hey guys,

Can anyone tell me why the chev exhaust ports flow better than the ford ones? I see the aftermarket heads have the option of both (chev ports on a ford??) and that the chev ports flow better.

Cheers
There isn't a BBF cylinder head commercially offered anywhere that utilizes a Chevrolet exhaust port design. There are, however, a few BBF cylinder heads which utilize the BBC exhaust flange. The particular cylinder heads in question use an exhaust port design which empties through the BBC flange because the header types that the end users needed for their applications were more readily available in a BBC application than the BBF. If those heads used an actually chevrolet exhaust port, they would not "flow" the numbers you refer to.

The proper way to refer to those heads is as a "BBF head with a BBC flange," not as having a BBC port which isn't the case. Why design an entiry new flange when one already exists which fits a newly developed design? It's the same as using a 2.200 con rod bearing, for example.

The reason for the improved flow numbers on the bench is due to overall cylinder head design, particularly in the area of the exhaust port, and whether or not a given cylinder head design is better suited depends on your overall engine combo; more is not always better.

Paul
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Last edited by Paul Kane; 09-04-2011 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 09-04-2011, 10:17 AM
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OK thanks, ive only recently come into these motors so im still learning about how it all works.

There is much more aftermarket support for these rather than our locally developed 4.0L inline 6 thats in our falcons. There arent many of these 460's around down here in Australia so ive joined up here to learn about them.

Thanks for the well explained answer.
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  #8  
Old 09-30-2011, 01:21 PM
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Wow, this is a big post... I'm having some heads built for me right now. They are cast iron, and I believe Doves. 429 heads. I was waiting till I was accepted into this forum to ask dumb questions, but I COULD'NT wait, hehe. DSC Motorsports in Anza, CA? Anyone have any experience with these guys? Just trying to put a mild street car together. I got this old Ranchero for $1,300 and have spent way too much so far. Hooker headers, flat tappet cam (mild to moderate), Edlebrock performer manifold, and I think '68 timing/cam gear. I've replaced most of the bushings with polyurethane and am getting new tires and rims. What do you think? How much HP can I expect form this setup? Please don't make me cry...
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:02 AM
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how do the new ford pro stock hemi and wedge heads stack up in this list?
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2011, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB573 View Post
how do the new ford pro stock hemi and wedge heads stack up in this list?
I think you realize, that the new Ford Pro Stock heads are in an entirely different league. The bank offset has been changed with the new Pro Stock block, so in essence the valve have been reversed. There is no interchangability with OEM production blocks, cams and etc.

That being said, they would be at the top of the list.

Hope this helps,
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
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Here is a "C" thing to think about.
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lem Evans View Post
yhjki
Lem does this engine use a FRPP intake by Bob Dowling with an elongated plenum?
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:11 AM
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No sir.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:19 AM
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No sir.
Just an extended plenum.
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  #15  
Old 12-20-2011, 05:43 PM
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No, it's a typical conventionaly ported C460 manifold....no external welding etc.
B.t.w. who is Bob Dowling?
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