Starter/Ring Gear Issues - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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Starter/Ring Gear Issues

Having starter/ring gear issues with a new build on a 1973 460 Ford. The bell housing, clutch, p.p. and flywheel were on the previous 460 that went terminal. I purchased the car (69 Fairlane) with the engine already installed (supposedly less than 1k miles and the clutch looks new). The person I purchased from did not do the install and doesn’t know the origin of the parts. The flywheel has 184 teeth (427?). The starter is a Summit Racing® Protorque Starter SUM-820048. The clutch and p.p. are Luk. The engine started several times on the test stand and about 5 or 6 times after getting it in the car. Then it began to grind and just spin. I had failed to check the flywheel closely before installing it on the new build so it’s my bad: Found the starter teeth only engage about an eighth inch into the ring and only about a third of the way across the teeth and both the gear and the ring are damaged. When the starter is off the engine it kicks the gear out plenty far enough to fully engage but it appears either the tooth count and/or pitch are wrong. It appears the problem existed on the previous motor because the block plate has been cut off to allow the starter to bolt directly against the block (another indicator I was too dumb to see when I put it together). I guess I’m looking at the results of someone converting an automatic to a 4 speed and not getting it right but don’t know enough to correct it. I’ve read several posts about starter issues on 460s but I didn’t get a clear idea on what to do. Any help would be appreciated – Especially Part Numbers!.

VAFan
532" BBF in a 69 Fairlane
306" SBF in a 48 Fordor
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 11:30 AM
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Having starter/ring gear issues with a new build on a 1973 460 Ford. The bell housing, clutch, p.p. and flywheel were on the previous 460 that went terminal. I purchased the car (69 Fairlane) with the engine already installed (supposedly less than 1k miles and the clutch looks new). The person I purchased from did not do the install and doesn’t know the origin of the parts. The flywheel has 184 teeth (427?). The starter is a Summit Racing® Protorque Starter SUM-820048. The clutch and p.p. are Luk. The engine started several times on the test stand and about 5 or 6 times after getting it in the car. Then it began to grind and just spin. I had failed to check the flywheel closely before installing it on the new build so it’s my bad: Found the starter teeth only engage about an eighth inch into the ring and only about a third of the way across the teeth and both the gear and the ring are damaged. When the starter is off the engine it kicks the gear out plenty far enough to fully engage but it appears either the tooth count and/or pitch are wrong. It appears the problem existed on the previous motor because the block plate has been cut off to allow the starter to bolt directly against the block (another indicator I was too dumb to see when I put it together). I guess I’m looking at the results of someone converting an automatic to a 4 speed and not getting it right but don’t know enough to correct it. I’ve read several posts about starter issues on 460s but I didn’t get a clear idea on what to do. Any help would be appreciated – Especially Part Numbers!.
not enough info, what bell do you have,and what starter, if you are using a real 429 bell you cant use a 184 flywheel,and need a 176 429 wheel, starter has a threaded top hole?


the block plate is not that important, and will work with out it
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CIRCLE (R) 815 712 8738
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BOSS 302 351 429 800CI+

Last edited by BOSS 429; 02-12-2019 at 11:32 AM.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 11:37 AM
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That block plate has to be there to register the starter pinion to the ring gear
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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The starter is a Summit Racing® Protorque Starter SUM-820048. The starter has a threaded top hole. The bell is a mystery. I didn't see an sn. Where should I look? I'm on the road today and will be home tomorrow afternoon

VAFan
532" BBF in a 69 Fairlane
306" SBF in a 48 Fordor
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 12:41 AM
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I got two set up's One is top loader with Quick time steel bellhousing with 176 tooth flywheel. The other is a C-6 with a 164 tooth ATI flexplate. The block plates are different because the flexplate is smaller than the flywheel. You can get away without the block plate with the steel bellhousing but with the aluminum C-6 case and with an engine that kicks back you will crack the C-6 case. I got the tee shirt. Also there is a difference on the starter snout between an auto transmission and manual.

I am also having starter issues but I think my problem is related to the after market crankshaft, crank adapter, and ATI flexplate. I will need something custom and I am working with Power Master

Pat
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 10:40 AM
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Ford made 2 starters years ago- 6" & 6 1/2". You need the longer with the plate installed or the starter may not disengage
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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The housing SN is D7TA7505AD, which I translate as a 78 or early 79 Bronco with a 400 motor. The housing is 6 1/2" deep and has a 4 3/4" transmission opening.
It appears the whole thing was cobbled together on a "looks like it fits basis.
If I have to start over, I need suggestions. I want to keep the 4-speed so is QuickTime the best way to go on the housing or is there a less expensive route? I don't plan on racing so sfi is not critical.
Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated.

VAFan
532" BBF in a 69 Fairlane
306" SBF in a 48 Fordor
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 03:16 PM
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vafan View Post
The housing SN is D7TA7505AD, which I translate as a 78 or early 79 Bronco with a 400 motor. The housing is 6 1/2" deep and has a 4 3/4" transmission opening.
It appears the whole thing was cobbled together on a "looks like it fits basis.
If I have to start over, I need suggestions. I want to keep the 4-speed so is QuickTime the best way to go on the housing or is there a less expensive route? I don't plan on racing so sfi is not critical.
Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated.

the 351m 400 bell will work fine, you need a 184 tooth fe flywheel, and a 429 460,351m or 400 starter

I either didnt see,or mis the year of your engine,because of ballance I need to know year,or if its int,or ext ballance , You might or might not have to have a wheel ballanced

RICH
CIRCLE (R) 815 712 8738
--------------------------------
BUY,SELL, or TRADE BBF parts
Dynoed or Test STAND RAN
CYLINDER HEAD PORTING
HEAD FLOWING
COMPLETE ENGINES avb
From STOCK to NOT
PRO SYSTEMS CARBS
BOSS 302 351 429 800CI+
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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The 184 flywheel is what was on the engine. It is a '73, internal balance. You're saying the Summit starter is the problem? I just need to replace the ring and get a Ford starter? Will it turn 11-1 with the battery in the trunk? I went to this starter because of hard starting when hot.

VAFan
532" BBF in a 69 Fairlane
306" SBF in a 48 Fordor
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 09:46 PM
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The 184 flywheel is what was on the engine. It is a '73, internal balance. You're saying the Summit starter is the problem? I just need to replace the ring and get a Ford starter? Will it turn 11-1 with the battery in the trunk? I went to this starter because of hard starting when hot.
untill I moved my starter to the drivers side on my 15 to 1 engines I ONLY used a stock starter.

I have many guys all with more then 12 to 1 using stock starters, or we use power master, you prob just have the wrong starter

-Rich
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RICH
CIRCLE (R) 815 712 8738
--------------------------------
BUY,SELL, or TRADE BBF parts
Dynoed or Test STAND RAN
CYLINDER HEAD PORTING
HEAD FLOWING
COMPLETE ENGINES avb
From STOCK to NOT
PRO SYSTEMS CARBS
BOSS 302 351 429 800CI+
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks BOSS429 for all the help. One last question - I don't know where to find a block plate that fits the Bronco housing. How necessary is the plate to getting a proper mesh of gear and ring?

VAFan
532" BBF in a 69 Fairlane
306" SBF in a 48 Fordor
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Still wrestling...

I’ve asked for advice before on here about my starter/ring gear problems (’79 truck block, Eagle crank, ’79 Bronco bell, 184 tooth Flywheel, Luk c&pp, internal balance). I’ve now gone through my 3rd starter – Ford OE replacement this time – after installing a new ring gear. This all started after I installed a new engine (old block was a ’70 with a stock crank) using the existing bell, c&pp and flywheel. So I’ve concluded that I’ve got to have an alignment problem that I’m just not seeing or this “old school” workaround for installing a 4-speed that I inherited is just BS.
So, I’m looking at starting over. My choices, as I see it are (in order of dollars): 1) Quick Time Bell, new flywheel, new starter; 2) C4 Kit; 3) C6 Kit; 4) 5-speed kit. Comments, advice (REALLY wanted). Am I jumping to the wrong conclusion? What would you do?

VAFan
532" BBF in a 69 Fairlane
306" SBF in a 48 Fordor
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 11:58 AM
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question, you are using a d8te iron bell ? right?

184 390 ,184 tooth wheel,and a factory starter that bolts top bolt in,and bottom bolt out?

what are you telling them when you ask for a starter?

RICH
CIRCLE (R) 815 712 8738
--------------------------------
BUY,SELL, or TRADE BBF parts
Dynoed or Test STAND RAN
CYLINDER HEAD PORTING
HEAD FLOWING
COMPLETE ENGINES avb
From STOCK to NOT
PRO SYSTEMS CARBS
BOSS 302 351 429 800CI+
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOSS 429 View Post
question, you are using a d8te iron bell ? right?

184 390 ,184 tooth wheel,and a factory starter that bolts top bolt in,and bottom bolt out?

what are you telling them when you ask for a starter?
The housing SN is D7TA7505AD, 184 tooth wheel and factory starter that bolts top in and bottom out. The manager at PATCO (local reconditioner) says the starter fits 429/460 Fords. Is the Eagle shaft's flange any thicker or thinner than stock?

VAFan
532" BBF in a 69 Fairlane
306" SBF in a 48 Fordor
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