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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Advise for torq build 545+

I have SCJA heads probably swapping springs for a roller camshaft.
A 1974 460 complete motor
Planning on a Pro Flo 4 fuel injection system.

Will be put in a 1979 Ford Bronco with a C6.

Biggest issue is I live and work above 7000ft of elevation and need lots of low rpm torque. 500 plus at 2000 rpm if possible.

Any advise on pistons compression ratio etc is appriciated.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 01:54 PM
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I have SCJA heads probably swapping springs for a roller camshaft.
A 1974 460 complete motor
Planning on a Pro Flo 4 fuel injection system.

Will be put in a 1979 Ford Bronco with a C6.

Biggest issue is I live and work above 7000ft of elevation and need lots of low rpm torque. 500 plus at 2000 rpm if possible.

Any advise on pistons compression ratio etc is appriciated.

Will your truck ever see lower altitude operation?


SJ
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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No, it will be only used between 6000 ft and 8000 ft.

Mostly 6500 ft to 7200 ft but it could go on hunting trips where I could go as low as 5500 ft for a few miles.

I live at 7200 ft.
Town is 6400 ft

Most fuel is 85 octane due to elevation but 91 octane is available. 91 here is like 93 octane at lower elevations.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 06:24 AM
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I would not use a 4.5" crank in an early block. I would limit the stroke to 4.3'' for your block. I made the mistake of ordering a 545 kit for my early D1 block then I discovered that a late block is better suited for a 4.5'' stroke. Now I am trying to locate a D9 block. Grrrr. The D9 block has .200'' deeper cylinder walls and lessens the piston rock and in turn increases ring life dramatically. I strongly recommend using the vendors on here for your parts.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 09:16 AM
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For a real "torque motor", those are the wrong heads. Even stock heads with a stroker kit would be better. 4.300 stroke, D3 heads, Performer intake, and a cam in the [email protected] would be a great combination. Compression in the 9.5:1 range with iron heads, 10.5:1 with alum.

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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I was afraid of that. I was kinda hoping the extra cubes would justify the SCJ heads.

But things do get much easier with D3 heads. Intake and exhaust manifolds for instance.

Wouldn't a higher compression be advisable with my elevation though?
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 05:18 PM
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I was afraid of that. I was kinda hoping the extra cubes would justify the SCJ heads.

But things do get much easier with D3 heads. Intake and exhaust manifolds for instance.

Wouldn't a higher compression be advisable with my elevation though?

On a large displacement torque monster SCJ A or B heads are fine. We have done multiple high torque towing engines at 521" with pocket ported SCJ's that are making 540 lb feet of torque at 2500 rpm with a peak of about 625. AFR 280 headed deals are closer to 580 with a peak torque of 653

I have an scj headed build we do that provides plenty of low end grunt with a mild cam, butter smooth idle and does 625 tq and 510+ hp at under 5000 rpm. Client feed back for overall driveability while towing has been outstanding.


Here is a link to the build album on our old RHP biz facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/SMJRHP/p...00324196721635


For comparison purposes the same combo with AFR 280's:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/...29445424099806


At sea level we run about 9.6 to 1 static with great results on 87 octane fuel. Premium if HEAVILY loaded.

At your altitude I would run as carl noted mid 10's.

Link to idle quality. We used an HFT cam but a HR can be subbed.

https://www.facebook.com/SMJRHP/videos/800343366719718/

Follow the first build linked. You will not be disappointed.

At 545 inches the low end torque production will be 25 lb ft higher which you will need to offset losses at your DA


SJ
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Last edited by The Mad Porter; 06-11-2019 at 05:23 PM.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Darn!!
625 ft lbs at sea level is only 500 ft lbs up here.

Had to put a kenne bell on my V10 6.8L just to get it back to factory hp and torque.

Still 500 ft lbs is better than what came in bronco stock.

Don't need the torque for towing. I like it for elevation. Gobs of torque means I don't downshift going up mountain roads and I can push thru 3 or 4 ft of snow with out bogging down.

Forgot to mention that average temp in winter is 20 degrees. It's rarely been above 80 at my house and that's just for an hour or 2 a couple days a year. If temps matter with compression ratios and cams.

I was trying to avoid forced induction as it can get pricey. And I'm not sure the pro flo 4 system can be force induced. I have to have the sequincial fuel injection because carbs don't like driving to town with a 1200 ft elevation difference.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 07:19 PM
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Darn!!
625 ft lbs at sea level is only 500 ft lbs up here.

Had to put a kenne bell on my V10 6.8L just to get it back to factory hp and torque.

Still 500 ft lbs is better than what came in bronco stock.

Don't need the torque for towing. I like it for elevation. Gobs of torque means I don't downshift going up mountain roads and I can push thru 3 or 4 ft of snow with out bogging down.

Forgot to mention that average temp in winter is 20 degrees. It's rarely been above 80 at my house and that's just for an hour or 2 a couple days a year. If temps matter with compression ratios and cams.

I was trying to avoid forced induction as it can get pricey. And I'm not sure the pro flo 4 system can be force induced. I have to have the sequincial fuel injection because carbs don't like driving to town with a 1200 ft elevation difference.

I am well aquainted with high altitude builds. We do them for the EFI 460 as well with good results.

The listed combo at 545 inches will make about 650 torque with mid 9's static. Now add a point of static c/r and it would pick up about 3% or about 670 pound feet. Figure on losing about 140 pound feet due to DA. Additional static c/r and custom cam timing can help offset the losses getting you close to 550 pound feet. Given your altitude and temps I'd personally go for 11 to 1.

If that is not enough then you may have to look to boost.



SJ

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 07:24 PM
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Camshaft, Rod Length, Boost and Altitude Correction to Compression
Static compression ratio of 11:1.
Effective stroke is 3.86 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 9.58:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 168.37 PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of PSI is 8.18 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 236


This is the same DCR we set our sea level towing engines to. Static c/r depends on altitude. Figure 1 point for every 5k feet for offset while still being safe for pump fuel.



SJ

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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, SCJA heads with around 11:1 compression, hydraulic roller cam, roller rockers. Those heads are making the build a little difficult. I found some headers for SCJ heads made for a bronco but the pro flo 4 intake is not s SCJ intake. It's an edlebrock Victor style that I can get with 60# injectors.

I guess I have to ask if my scj heads should be sold and money used to fix up a set of D3s?
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 08:54 PM
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Ok, SCJA heads with around 11:1 compression, hydraulic roller cam, roller rockers. Those heads are making the build a little difficult. I found some headers for SCJ heads made for a bronco but the pro flo 4 intake is not s SCJ intake. It's an edlebrock Victor style that I can get with 60# injectors.

I guess I have to ask if my scj heads should be sold and money used to fix up a set of D3s?

The Proflow efi intake is based on the torker 2 which is OK and will easily bolt on to the SCJ heads even though the port centers are std port. The actual victor intake is on CJ centers but would KILL off idle torque and be down on average power throughout the entire curve.

Your best bet for low end torque off idle is going to be a performer RPM dual plane and a self learning throttle body based EFI system. This will work every bit as well as the port system and the intake will run cooler due to latent heat of vaporization.

No more than [email protected] .050" intake duration and about 10 or 12 additional exhaust.

Blend bowls and made SURE you back cut the intake valves 27* at LEAST .080" wide above the 45* seat angle. This is critical.

D3 heads with out extensive port work will choke this engine (done at 3500 with the same cam) and make less torque in the range you are using. Better only just off idle to maybe 2000 rpm however the convertor will stall higher than that.


SJ

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Last edited by The Mad Porter; 06-11-2019 at 08:57 PM.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 08:25 AM Thread Starter
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I assume the bowl work and un-shrouding is for the D3s?

I have looked at the TBI units and they are good. It's just that I cannot adjust the timing curve via a program on a computer. I like to modify timing that way. The self learning will get things close and then I can fine tune.

There are 2 things the pro flo does not have. 1) knock sensor. 2) 2 O2 sensors so each bank can be monitored. I'm going to ask them about that too.

Since the air gap manifold is an edlebrock unit I'm going to call them and see if they can put the air gap manifold in the pro flo kit for me.

I do see the advantage of TBI though. Cooler intake does make a huge difference. I had to put water meth on my V10 to cool intake while in boost. IAT went from 250 degrees to under 120 degrees at full boost. I was able to add more timing and got more torque because intake was cooler and compression charge had more "humidity".

Thanks for intake info, I did not know a std intake would work with SCJ heads.

Now I just have to determine if I want hydraulic roller cam or go with hydraulic flats to keep things simple.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock2610d View Post
I assume the bowl work and un-shrouding is for the D3s?

I have looked at the TBI units and they are good. It's just that I cannot adjust the timing curve via a program on a computer. I like to modify timing that way. The self learning will get things close and then I can fine tune.

There are 2 things the pro flo does not have. 1) knock sensor. 2) 2 O2 sensors so each bank can be monitored. I'm going to ask them about that too.

Since the air gap manifold is an edlebrock unit I'm going to call them and see if they can put the air gap manifold in the pro flo kit for me.

I do see the advantage of TBI though. Cooler intake does make a huge difference. I had to put water meth on my V10 to cool intake while in boost. IAT went from 250 degrees to under 120 degrees at full boost. I was able to add more timing and got more torque because intake was cooler and compression charge had more "humidity".

Thanks for intake info, I did not know a std intake would work with SCJ heads.

Now I just have to determine if I want hydraulic roller cam or go with hydraulic flats to keep things simple.

I was referring to the SCJ's for bowl work and intake valve back cut.

I suggested using the RPM intake not the air gap which has larger port cross section that is not needed according to your stated goals.


SJ

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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 02:13 PM
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I would agree to build the engine for high-altitude/DA, and let the engine controls handle the fuel and timing for any conditions from there. I'm all about EFI, custom ignitions and tuning, and the up-side is the ability for it to handle your high density altitude best, while also compensating for trips to the lowlands on crappy pump gas. Take a low-DA morning and drive to the lowlands to tune your high manifold pressure areas, which it will never see at higher altitudes, but when and if conditions are there it will then handle it in-stride with best possible performance.



I also would not rely on a system knock sensor, and instead tune using a set of electronic ears (buy or build), as they are much more sensitive while tuning, and the human brain can detect trends much quicker and more accurately than a black box. Coupled with spark plug reading, it's reliable. Once tuned properly, and assuming your fuel grade is maintained at the level used for tuning, a knock sensor should not ever trigger after that anyway. You would not want a system that pushes timing constantly until detonation then back-off and try again over and over. Performance is lower as it's designed to continuously try to cope with different fuel grades, and the timing is never quite right (mostly above or below optimal timing) as it is searching. Tell it where best performance is for your engine build and fuel of choice, and leave it there.


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