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yet another overheating stroked 460 problem

12K views 49 replies 16 participants last post by  BOSS 429 
#1 ·
hello all I have seen and heard of allot of ford 289,302,351c,429,460,545 engines overheating at idle or within a few miles down the road, in my case I have both but fixed one, I still overheat or get to hot driving down the road to 230/245, before I would get that hot at idle within 15 mins , I did fix that and so everybody know it was intake gaskets, after being a engine tech ase master I built a motor and used tj heads with a scj intake ports with tj gaskets I used fel pro 1231 and fixed the idle problem my bad on that one, I should have remembered the port variances but ehh its fixed now it just does it after a mile or two below are my engine specs currently I have tried 3 different radiators a northern 4 core a be cool 4 core a frostbite down flow installed now, I used a Taurus 16" fan I used two 2500 cfm haydens, now I have two 12 " perma cools at 3500 cfm each,
I have used 170,180,190 stats, I have used the gold and the blue restrictor plates, I have used ani freeze 50/50 and now I am using straight water, I used 16.18. and currently 24 pd cap, I am at a lose of what to do next, I have over 1500 just in failed attemps in cooling system parts I have tore the engine down and checked the head gaskets I scoped the block heads pump I dunno, I am ready to set a small block cheby next to it and scare it straight, I read allot about this issue but no cure oh and I have ran the blower at 12 psi and now 6 I have also had several conversations with allen at badassracecars.com who was a lot of help, I just cant nail this down lets all figure this out and post the fix

460 = clegg stroker kit to 545
fully machined block pressure tested washed magged
heads aluminum pro comps just saving weight there but they work well
comp 112 lobe sep cam set straight up
gear drive
one pice drive rod
9;8;1 bushed pistons
plasma rings
high vol pump
new timing cover
35 gpm pump with a backing plate
billet dizzy locked at 36 degrees
8.8 wires
msd 6al
3 step retard
don Hampton 871 blower
dual throttle body fuel injection fitech afr set at 12:5:1 idle and cruse set rich for blower
engine makes 17 hg
4 fuel pumps
fps headers to 3" exhaust side pipes no baffles

gets hot 230/245 after 2 to 3 miles at 85 degrees out, I stop and it will SLOWLY cool down when I let it idle, I tried adding a pusher fan that seemed to make it worse
 
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#3 ·
230! 245!!!!

I consider 220 shutdown temp!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#4 ·
Maybe I missed it, what vehicle is the engine in? I can tell you a 16" Taurus fan usually will not keep a street driven NA BBF cool. Aftermarket fans seldom have the same cooling performance as a comparable sized factory fan, mainly due to a lack of a decent fan shroud. A Lincoln Mark VIII is a better match but that is sometimes borderline and fit can be an issue with a BBF water pump to radiator clearance. Have you pressure tested the cooling system? What AFR numbers are you seeing while cruising/highway speed? What does you timing curve look like? Just trying to help.
 
#5 ·
Just on the off chance you overlooked the same thing I did, how are you sensing temperature?

I have an electrical gauge that consistently and suddenly pegs at 250 after about 5-10 minutes of runtime.

Checking the radiator, manifold outlet etc etc with a non-contact temperature gauge I couldn't find any temps over about 200.

I finally noticed that after the car runs for a few minutes, the voltmeter drops from 13+ to 11V. At the same instant, the electric temp gauge pegs - so it isn't actually a temp problem, it's a voltage problem!

I'm still chasing the electrical problem. Maybe it's a bad ground. Maybe when the fans come on, the voltage drops. Maybe the alternator is bad. If I can't figure it out, I'll start throwing parts - alternator first.

Hope this helps,

Tom
 
#7 ·
I had this problem with my 429 and after changing out many parts, I finally took an Infrared Thermometer and
took the temp of everything. All my temps were around 145 - 175 and even the upper and lower hoses were not as hot as my gauge read.
Took the temp of the sending unit and found it was apprx 190. Just for the fun of it I bought a new mechanical sending unit and gauge.
put the sending unit into a pot of water on the stove and watched the gauge temp while reading three other thermometers in the water also.
They all read the same temp as the gauge.... Well found out it was the water temp sending unit that was the problem. Installed the new setup
and back down to 180 ish all day long. JMTCW.
 
#8 ·
it is in a 1967 galaxie,

my afr number across the board are 12.8.1 all temps all rpm settings

I only show a 10 degree difference in radiator inlet and out let temp

I have two temp units on it one for a electronic gauge and one for the fuel injection they read the same

replaced temp sending units with the delco

system is topped of before driving and fluids checked

bottom hose is temporarily built out of pvc tube to rule out closing up at highway speed

voltage is good 13.5 all the time

timing is locked at 36 with a three step retard on a 6al box as recommended by don Hampton

update,,,,,,,,,, I spent the last few days speaking with afco/northern/frostbite/griffin/C&r/ and be cool and the general consensus is my frostbite is too thick for the electric fans even though they are rated at 3300 cfm each they half to pull air through a core that is 3 and a 1/4 inches thick air is not making it through the core fast enough and with the btu the motor is making the air is hot enough at the half way point through the radiator it is not cooling the last two 5/8 tubes wich is shown in a laser temp test of only 10 degrees difference in the inlet and outlet of the radiator. I need to go to a double pass 27.5 x 20 core size with 1 inch tubes and a total core thickness 0f 2 and a 1/4 and install a stock flow 180 stat with two 1/8 inch holes @ 90 degrees apart from one another so I went with the following also you will notice on the radiator it is the CHEVY part inlet/outlet on the right I will half to plumb the outlet back over to the left side now afco say this will cool it I did tell them I also picked up a electronic rheostat to control the flow rate of speed of the water pump but afco says I wont need it we shall see the fan shroud is close to the size I need I can rework it to fit correctly unfortunately afco is 10 weeks out on doing any shrouds so the order was placed today I should have everything by this weekend and I will try and get it all put together at the bottom is a you tube link where I tore the motor dowm checking head gaskets and some other thing for everyone's info on orientation of the drivers side head gasket

AFCO Racing 100002 - AFCO Racing Coolant Additives
ADDITIVE, AFCO COOLING 16OZ
AFC-100002

AFCO Racing 80101NDP - AFCO Racing Universal Performance Line Radiators
Radiator, Aluminum, Crossflow, Natural, 27.500 in. Wide, 20.000 in. High, 3.000 in. Thick, Each
AFC-80101NDP

Motorcraft D5PZ8575B - Motorcraft Thermostats
Thermostat, Mechanical, Standard-flow, 180 degrees, Copper/Steel, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Each

Summit Racing SUM-380482-SH - Summit Racing® Adjustable Aluminum Fan Shroud Kits
Fan Shroud, Aluminum, Single Fan, 19.000 in. Height, 26.00 in. Width, 2.625 in. Thickness, Each
SUM-380482-SH

Part Subtotal $414.95


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ2GK2atwAYn-31xKqG4zNQ
 
#10 ·
In my experience(and not trying to argue), I have never seen a 12" cooling fan able to pull 3300cfm of airflow, especially through a radiator. If you change the radiator and still have cooling issues, you may want to try a dual cooling fan assembly from a '95-'98 Ford Windstar. It would just about fit your radiator core size perfectly, I use one on my Ranchero's 28x17 core aluminum radiator and it keeps my 472 cool even during the summer using A/C here in central Florida. Have you tested many amps does both your cooling fans pull at startup and during use, usually a good barometer of typical cooling fan performance. My WS fans pull 75+ amps at startup and 43 amps continuous with both on. Hope this is helpful.
 
#11 ·
all I can say about those perms cool fans is "ehhh I dunno" I suspect the cfm of "3300" cfm is a free air rating I put them on there at 149.00 each because the "summit tech dept" said there the best they offer but I do how ever have a dual fan setup from the v6 ford escape 28x19 they move in my opinion more than the perma cools and I have a 16" Lincoln mark 8 fan and shroud so my thought is I bought 2 blank shroud kits 1 of them I will set up for the mark 8 fan the other a spare or for any other set up the escape dual fans will fit fairly well to the 27 by 19 shroud but for now whats in there keeps it cool or close to it at 210/213 and hopefully the afco thinner core dual pass set up works this car is scary fast and I would love to get it painted and drive it


no I did not check amp draws, they are on a 30 amp fuse (each) and they are on separate 40 amp relays
 
#12 ·
Good info! The Mark VIII fan is actually 18" fan and it is one of if not the best single cooling fan available, but the problem is that the newest ones are over 20 years old and they do not make aftermarket motors for the '97 or '98 models(the highest cfm rated Mark VIII fans). Another option is a single cooling fan from a '96 or '87 T-bird/Cougar, uses same 18" fan as Mark VIII but has a different 2-speed motor that is cfm rated just behind the Lincoln when used on high speed. The biggest issue I found with the Ford factory single fans is water pump clearance(BBF applications), whereas the Windstar dual assembly fits rather well. As far as relays, I use a 70 amp relay on each one of my fans and have not had any issues, here's the outside physical differences between the 70 amp on left and standard 30/40 amp on right:


Hope you get it figured out and get some quality time behind the wheel!
 
#13 ·
Update: took the alternator to Advance where they tested it for free. Three times! It tested "FAIL" each time.

I had a new 130 amp alternator in my pile of spare stuff that tested good; put it on and my temperature problems went away! Never went over 205. Voltage stayed at 12.5VDC.

So when the car's voltage dropped to 11VDC, the temp gauge went high. Engine temp was actually just right.

I know this wasn't the original poster's problem, but maybe it'll help someone else.
 
#14 ·
hey any help is welcomed and appreciated, there is quite a bit of cooling issues out there and hopefully people will find this thread I believe it will be very helpful I also did alternator changes unfortunately it didn't help in my case I should receive all my new parts from the brown Santa on Monday and I will get it all in this coming week and give my results
 
#15 ·
how about another heat issue, 429 ,mild cam ,weiand stealth, summit carb,flowcooler water pump, 63 1/2 Galaxie ,Griffin two row radiator,full shroud with two 10 inch northern fans and at the present no thermostat but have tried a stock 180 a high flow mr gasket 160 degree nothing changes car will idle and creep up to 210-212 range and just never recover , fans come on at 180 deg and off at 175 and also have a a/c override to turn them on with compressor . Even running down the road runs about same temp and goes up at stoplights with a/c on . also I do have the plate on the waterpump. Timimg about 14 deg . am I to the point of tearing down engine to check head gasket hole placement ,I built this engine about 10 years ago and have only driven the car 5000 miles because of heating problems . I just can't remember how I placed the head gaskets. Guess that's what dang near 70 years old does to your memory.
At least my little 66 GT350 clone runs and cools perfectly so I have something to play with on cruise night !
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated !
 
#17 ·
27 1/2wide 19 tall two row Griffin with 1.25 inch tubes it only leaves me about three inches between pump and core , I can fit the alum shroud and two fans with the w/p pulley between the fans . I would like to try the windstar setup but don't know if I have room, I guess I could try to find one in a u-pull it yard and see if it will clear. My old 63 1/2 just aint designed for a 385 series !
thank you I kind of had my doubts about the fans. I had a FFD 3600 cfm fan set up as a pusher and car heated with that setup. I have had 3 different radiators and 4 different thermostats and 3 different fan setups and nothing has worked so far. Took the thermostat out today and it ran just a little cooler (around 205) but that seems a little warm to me.Drove it up the road 5 miles and back then let it idle for about 10 minutes and it got up to about 110 . But the air temp was 99 with a heat index of 115 here in deep southern Illinois. Thanks so much for the reply if you think of anything please post back !
 
#21 ·
On those 3 different radiators, did you count the number of fins per inch? My 460/528 stroker motorhome came with a 20 fins per inch radiator. I purchased a replacement radiator and it only had 15 fins per inch and wouldn't cool the motorhome. That was a 25% loss in surface area. I ended up using my old copper/brass core with custom brass end tanks. OEM tanks were crimp on composite.

Richard
 
#19 ·
timing seems a bit low try 22 deg, also check for my mistake wrong port size intake gaskets look in plenum c if you see light or wait till it can be dark as possible a shine light down the flange where there intake meets the head look in plenum for light, 10" fans way to small I am in the process of changing me radiator out to a afco dual pass with a Lincoln m8 fan I powered it up and my bill fold or wallet will stick to the front of the radiator,, odd that's the same temp my blown 545 hangs at too,, timing to me definitely sounds low to me,
 
#23 ·
Here's how my 557 in a Fox looks. The fans are Derale - a photo of the box label is included; they seem to work fine in combination with the very good quality Fluidyne radiator.

The fan shroud had to be shortened from 2-3/4" to 2-1/2" to squeeze them in. There's at least (well, almost) 1/8" clearance between the fans and various engine parts ;-)
 

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#24 ·
I would go to bigger fans I am dumping my perma cools for the m8 fan, and I would try 22 degrees of timing that seem low for a big ford, and I don't believe its your head gaskets like in my case I had a overheat issue at idle because of the wrong port sixe of intake gasket and caused a bad air leak along both sides of the intake.
 
#25 ·
okay I installed the new afco dual pass radiator and the 180 stat I did not put coolant in it yet I am running straight water I started the car and let it run at idle now before idle temp was 210-220 now it is a very nice 185-190 I am very happy with that I let the car run about a total of 45 minutes in a garage 85 outside no fan blowing on the radiator it did load up because of the 12-5 afr setting after I shut the video off I did change it to 13-0 and it still stayed at 188 and ran really good the link below is to the video I will test drive it tomorrow as long as it doesn't rain see what cruse does

 
#26 ·
well I drove the car and the temp stayed between 185 and 201 at cruse 2500 t0 300 rpm it went as high as the 201 but when I slowed and went down a rd with lower speed limit it cooled back down to 192 and it was 75 degrees out so apparently the afco radiator did the trick along with the m8 fan I do have a miss at highway speed I believe it to be the plugs because I did do a plug change two degrees cooler and I believe they are loading up with the amoun of fuel going in I need to put the warmer plugs back in and reset all my fuel injection setting and start readjusting now the engine is running allot cooler
 
#27 ·
Sounds like you are making great strides in ridding yourself of the overheating issues. To lower your cruise rpm temps a bit more, it may be a good option to install a simple chin spoiler just in front/below the radiator to cause a low pressure area behind the radiator allowing more air to be forced through radiator while cruising. Here is what I fabbed up with some .080" aluminum, simple but effective:


Hope this helps.
 
#28 ·
that very koool ( cool ) pun intended lol ya know how I know that will work I went to school once upon a time in 1994 to aeronautics school and you are exactly right on what you "air foil" causes in air flow and positive negative pressures I looked at that pic and was like uhh duhh why didn't I think of that lol nice ill def add it
 
#29 ·
Having air bypass flaps in the fan shroud can help cooling at speed by allowing air pressure to bypass the fans and escape the shroud. At lower speeds and tooling around town the fans keep the flaps closed.


SJ
used 2b RHP



:D
 
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