AFR assembly - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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AFR assembly

i am assembling a 521 ci engine utilizing AFR 295 heads and AFR intake. the 73 block has been decked .015 and pistons set .003 below deck. intake bolted on fine before installing AFR gaskets. after installation of the gaskets i cannot bolt the intake to the heads. the bolts won't catch threads for the center bolts. maybe one side but it is impossible to catch threads on both sides. almost but not quite. i have decided to quit trying and need to cut the intake to lower the intake in the valley. is this unusual or a normal intake modification to get the AFR heads and intake to bolt to a factory ford block. with only a .015 cut to the deck i didn't expect to have to cut the intake. How much do i need to cut the sides to get this intake to bolt up? thanks.

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 12:41 PM
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Just open up the holes in the intake just a touch. You should not need to cut that intake if using .040 or thicker head gasket and silicone on the end rails of block.

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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 12:50 PM
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Are you sure you have long enough hardware for the intake? My 77 block was decked .015 or so and I had no issues bolting on my AFR315 heads and their matching dominator intake.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 03:28 PM
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We use the 4 corner vertical studs to draw down the intake and align the bolt holes.

I've had NO fitment issues at all with the AFR intakes.

Using a non AFR intake can be challenging at the china walls however.



SJ
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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i tried using the 4 corners and adjacent bolts to pull the intake down. at first i tried bolting the intake down with the end cork gaskets and couldn't get the center bolts started so i assumed that was the issue. pulled intake back off and removed the cork gaskets and started over utilizing silicone on the china walls. tried it again and with 4 corner method etc etc. still no center bolts. removed intake again and scraped all that sh*t off and decided to try it with no end gasket of any kind. no bolts. kept trying till I started damaging the threads by cross threading. i gave up studied it, considered elongating the bolt holes , decided against that and called a machinist friend and hauled it over there. i will pick it up tomorrow after he finishing removing .015 of both angle sides. i followed most of what i read and smeared the gaskets on both sides of the gaskets at the water ports and intake ports using very little silicone. machinist didn't think that the silicone was the problem. if the .015 cut doesn't work i'll cut the holes a hair. i found a chart in some of my library materials and what i read at a .015 cut of the block this would not have been necessary. just wondered if others had encountered this issue. thanks.


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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 08:05 PM
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I used studs in the 6 vertical intake bolt holes and had zero issues and my block decks were cut about the same as yours.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 06:20 AM
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What is your deck height measurement on all 4 corners? While you stated 0.015” was removed, that does not mean the deck is level, square, or at 10.300”.

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 08:25 AM Thread Starter
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block was bored .040 and clean as a whistle. i installed the crankshaft and installed piston and rod combinations with no rings in all 4 corners. block had .018 to .020 deck height. paid attention to piston rock and block seemed to be square top to bottom and front to back. pulled block back apart and took too machine shop and decided to square deck block .015 after discussing with machinist. picked block up reassembled. measured deck height again and i was happy with the results. i was shocked by inability to get center bolts started on intake manifold. the only thing i didn't have control of is i wasn't operating the milling machine but the before and after results of decking seemed to be correct. i had .015 removed from the intake and bolts still didn't fit. i would estimate it would take at least .050 to get the bolts to catch threads. i elongated the bolt holes in the intake with a carbide bit until the bolt fit the threads with no issues. i used original studs in all 4 corners and ford bolts in 2 vertical center holes. all the other grade 8 bolts with washers taking care to measure and select the correct length bolts to assure none were bottomed out. intake went together fine and bolts are torqued down 25-30. i am happy with it now but without washers you could see the elongated holes on the manifold. but i am the only one who knows. i did smear an additional rtv around ports and china wall was a little shorter so i did not have to use as much . unless some one is building engines for a living, very few would have the same level of experience as i have. this is only my 4th 385 series engine but i have built maybe 50 FE's. FE intakes some times take some effort to get those intake bolts started but with persistence i have always got them to work. the block came out of a 1973 galaxy PI from kansas highway patrol and i removed the engine from the car. it had never been touched prior to me purchasing the car.

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 12:16 PM
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Which intake gaskets are you using Jim?



SJ
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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AFR. i looked at the felpro fancy gaskets and didn't like the port match so looked at AFR website for more information. i like to use the cork gasket at the china wall if i can. my method has always been to use weatherstrip adhesive to glue them down and let it dry before using rtv around water ports and corners. it looked like the angle of the intake matched the heads pretty well and i don't think the machinist could have got the angle of the head milled surface off to screw up the intake fit and make it tight at the top. can't figure out why. i don't know. i did think the AFR gaskets were kind of thick. i didn't find the specs on them and did not measure them for thickness. i assumed they would be the same thickness as felpro. ain't they about .041 or so. thanks.


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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fomocoloco View Post
block was bored .040 and clean as a whistle. i installed the crankshaft and installed piston and rod combinations with no rings in all 4 corners. block had .018 to .020 deck height. paid attention to piston rock and block seemed to be square top to bottom and front to back. pulled block back apart and took too machine shop and decided to square deck block .015 after discussing with machinist. picked block up reassembled. measured deck height again and i was happy with the results. i was shocked by inability to get center bolts started on intake manifold. the only thing i didn't have control of is i wasn't operating the milling machine but the before and after results of decking seemed to be correct. i had .015 removed from the intake and bolts still didn't fit. i would estimate it would take at least .050 to get the bolts to catch threads. i elongated the bolt holes in the intake with a carbide bit until the bolt fit the threads with no issues. i used original studs in all 4 corners and ford bolts in 2 vertical center holes. all the other grade 8 bolts with washers taking care to measure and select the correct length bolts to assure none were bottomed out. intake went together fine and bolts are torqued down 25-30. i am happy with it now but without washers you could see the elongated holes on the manifold. but i am the only one who knows. i did smear an additional rtv around ports and china wall was a little shorter so i did not have to use as much . unless some one is building engines for a living, very few would have the same level of experience as i have. this is only my 4th 385 series engine but i have built maybe 50 FE's. FE intakes some times take some effort to get those intake bolts started but with persistence i have always got them to work. the block came out of a 1973 galaxy PI from kansas highway patrol and i removed the engine from the car. it had never been touched prior to me purchasing the car.

jim
Jim,

The reason I am asked is we have no idea what work was done to this block before and what rotating assembly you have. The block could have been at 10.270" deck height before, and after you had shaved off 0.015", it is now at 10.255", and that may be causing the problem you are seeing. We don't know. It is not uncommon to have to elongate bolt holes to make things fit. These are not Lego sets, and custom machining is sometimes needed to make things fit.

The "fun" in building motors.

Dave
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 09:35 PM
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For my 460 build, I ended up making my own gaskets based on the alignment/position of the installed intake and was able to successfully address this issue.

I started by making 8 alignment bushings (4 on each side) and dropped the intake on w/o gaskets with alignment bushings and bolts finger tight. I leveled the intake from side to side with a stack of feeler gauges and then measure the intake to head clearance (gasket space) on each side of the intake. I ended up with 2 different gasket thicknesses (1/64 and 1/32).

For you, if you can't get the bolts centered w/ no gasket, then you have no choice but to machine the intake to take material off to lower the intake down. You would have to measure or estimate the amount off-centerness and then do the trig to calc the amt of machining. The idea of opening the holes in the intake might address the installation ... but it can't be good for your port match.

On my build, I used felpro gasket material/paper. Both gaskets are thin, but the gaskets have some crush in them after torqueing and I believe they are sealed. The intake (Victor 460) is brand new, so I have a good surface to seal against. The clearance was pretty uniform vertically up the sealing face and front to rear. Just different on each side. Another solution was to machine the intake, but I didn't want to go to the trouble this go-around. At some point, I will cut one side of the intake to make the gasket thickness uniform at 1/32. Note on the front and rear sealing surfaces, red RTV was used. I never use the end seals.

I will start the engine in about 6 wks to know for sure if it is sealed, however I have made my own intake gaskets in the past and they have worked fine. Just wanted to share that with you.

A side note ... that with the fore mentioned alignment bushing, I was able to use the gaskets as a templete to get a near perfect port match between the intake and head, installed on the engine. I can see 4 of the 8 assembled ports and the alignment looks awesome.

Process: I used the bushings on the intake and made the gasket with a perfect match. I then transferred the gasket and bushings over to the head ... and then blended on the heads to a perfect match to the gasket. I chose the head to blend cus I'm using a Victor 460 intake and DOVE-C heads and there is a huge port mismatch that needed to be addressed. It was a pain the make the bushings since I don't have a machine shop, but they worked out very well for my build.

In my opinion, you have a very narrow window to get a good port alignment between the intake & cylinder head. Hence, I think a custom gasket/alignment bushing approach is required or perfectly machined parts tailored to the gasket you are going to use. If +/- 0.100" mis-alignment is okay, then either approach is not necessary. But for me, I'm going for +/- 0.020" ... however it sure is a lot of work.

Sorry for the long rely. Good luck with your build. Cheers.
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