OT - Has anyone tuned with a wide band 02 sensor like LM-1? - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-26-2006, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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OT - Has anyone tuned with a wide band 02 sensor like LM-1?

A friend of mine has this wide band 02 sensor and hand-held device that shows AFR in real time as the engine runs....from idle to WOT. He loaned it to me. To use it, you install a bung in your exhaust, or you can attach at the tail pipe. I went ahead and welded in an 02 bung at the collector, to check out my carb settings on my newly built 521.

My engine is on the dyno now. The dyno shop has what they think are all the measurements they need to tune the carb with the Superflow dyno, but they do not use 02 sensor, so I will install this and see if there if there is any difference in what it says vs. what they come up with.

Just curious if anyone has tried this method.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-26-2006, 09:17 PM
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Re: OT - Has anyone tuned with a wide band 02 sensor like LM

i tune with one. make sure you perform the clean air calibration before you use it...follow the directions. you want the meter to read around 15.5 at idle and around 12.5 at cruise. wide open throttle needs to be around 10.5. if you see the meter spike to say 14 or 15 or 16 to 1 at wot you are way lean..... you will want to get the proper air bleeds in the carb and the idle mixture screws adjusted in just right for the 15 or 16 to 1 at idle... also don't leave the lm-1 on when the vehicle is not running cause it pre heats the 02 sensor when its on. you want to fire up the vehicle first and then turn on the lm-1 and then turn it off when you shut the car off. hope this helps


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdean
A friend of mine has this wide band 02 sensor and hand-held device that shows AFR in real time as the engine runs....from idle to WOT. He loaned it to me. To use it, you install a bung in your exhaust, or you can attach at the tail pipe. I went ahead and welded in an 02 bung at the collector, to check out my carb settings on my newly built 521.

My engine is on the dyno now. The dyno shop has what they think are all the measurements they need to tune the carb with the Superflow dyno, but they do not use 02 sensor, so I will install this and see if there if there is any difference in what it says vs. what they come up with.

Just curious if anyone has tried this method.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-26-2006, 11:24 PM
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...unless you're running efi

When tuning EFI, I target stoichometry at idle and cruise...14.7:1, and about 12.5:1-13.5:1 at WOT, depending on dyno results and intended use and how important that last 15hp truly is. An idle leaner than about 15.3:1 usually causes surge or tip-in backfire on EFI unless you set the accelerator pump shot super rich.

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Re: ...unless you're running efi

i was reffering to carb readings. i think he is carb as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ByronRACE
When tuning EFI, I target stoichometry at idle and cruise...14.7:1, and about 12.5:1-13.5:1 at WOT, depending on dyno results and intended use and how important that last 15hp truly is. An idle leaner than about 15.3:1 usually causes surge or tip-in backfire on EFI unless you set the accelerator pump shot super rich.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 08:06 AM
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Re: OT - Has anyone tuned with a wide band 02 sensor like LM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotstang3
i tune with one. make sure you perform the clean air calibration before you use it...follow the directions. you want the meter to read around 15.5 at idle and around 12.5 at cruise. wide open throttle needs to be around 10.5. if you see the meter spike to say 14 or 15 or 16 to 1 at wot you are way lean..... you will want to get the proper air bleeds in the carb and the idle mixture screws adjusted in just right for the 15 or 16 to 1 at idle... also don't leave the lm-1 on when the vehicle is not running cause it pre heats the 02 sensor when its on. you want to fire up the vehicle first and then turn on the lm-1 and then turn it off when you shut the car off. hope this helps


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdean
A friend of mine has this wide band 02 sensor and hand-held device that shows AFR in real time as the engine runs....from idle to WOT. He loaned it to me. To use it, you install a bung in your exhaust, or you can attach at the tail pipe. I went ahead and welded in an 02 bung at the collector, to check out my carb settings on my newly built 521.

My engine is on the dyno now. The dyno shop has what they think are all the measurements they need to tune the carb with the Superflow dyno, but they do not use 02 sensor, so I will install this and see if there if there is any difference in what it says vs. what they come up with.

Just curious if anyone has tried this method.
I think your numbers are off a touch hotstang3. 10.5 is rich on a N/A motor. You want about 12.5 at WOT and 14.5-15.? when at idle and cruising.


Have a good day!
Michael

2003 F150 Supercrew
BBF
Turbo

1996 Ford Mustang
2.3t w/ HE351VE turbo
12.10 @ 114 mph
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, I have a NA engine with Holley (Proform) 950. My carb has tunable air bleeds in both idle and power.

I was thinking around 15 for idle, 13 for cruising and 12.4-5 at WOT....are these good AFR numbers to shoot for?
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdean
Yes, I have a NA engine with Holley (Proform) 950. My carb has tunable air bleeds in both idle and power.

I was thinking around 15 for idle, 13 for cruising and 12.4-5 at WOT....are these good AFR numbers to shoot for?

They are good STARTING place. the engine will tell where it wants to be, if you will listen to it.

Its kinda like asking what is the best timing for my engine. They are ballpark numbers you shoot for, but you have to test to getthe best ones for you.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Yep, I agree that one size does not fit all for sure.

The guy I have running the dyno and tuning has about 30 years experience with NA engines of all sizes and purposes (drag, track, street), so I should be in good hands. I should know more today.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 12:11 PM
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I have an LM-1 as well...very good tool.

My truck liked 14.7 at idle, 14.2 or so at cruise, 12.5 WOT.

A big advantage was using to run some very slight hills and seeing that it was going quite rich just chugging along. I run an Edelbrock so I threw a new set of metering rods in it and there was a very definite change in power, much nicer pulling hills now at around 50mph in fourth which used to be a bit tedious. I think a lot of guys can get close at idle and WOT without a wideband, but it's very helpful for tuning in a street vehicle at part throttle situations.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
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Chilly,

I guess it is OK to cruise at 14.7 AFR since there is the least amount of load on the engine (in my case not towing anything), therefore less chance to ping?

John
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 02:44 PM
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I believe 14.7 is chemically perfect, so theoretically it's ok. My truck weighs somewhere around 6500lbs, so I went a wee bit safe and put it at 14.2 for cruise. It's running an 8.5:1 tall deck 427 so pinging isn't really a concern. If you run a light car with a lot of gear, it shouldn't ping when run a bit on the lean side...a heavy car with a 3.00 gear may like a little richer setup to be on the safe side.
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 05:34 PM
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Modern cars...

Modern EFI cars run narrow-band oxygen sensors that tell the computer whether the mixture is richer or leaner than 14.7:1. During low loads and light throttle, the computer is in this mode...and the mixture is constantly adapted to 14.7:1. Timing advance is also computer controlled and usually quite advanced during this mode. As load increases, or throttle increases, the mixture gets richer and the timing decreases. I'm not talking about WOT here, I'm talking about 1% throttle to about 10% throttle.

So no, it won't ping at 14.7:1 at light throttle; even up a hill, if the timing advance is reasonable and you're running streetable comprssion. But, you wouldn't want to WOT it at 14.7:1 through peak torque. It would probably rattle.

I've done "lean burn" calibrations intentionally that disregard the oxygen sensors and run the mixture as lean as 16.5:1 during light load cruise. This is horrible for emissions, but it results in improved fuel mileage. Even this lean, the engine will not ping if the load is small enough. Most engines with warmed up cams won't run well at all with the mixture this lean and I don't recommend it...I'm simply stating that an engine will continue to run (and not detonate) with ultra-lean mixtures during cruise if the timing advance is correct and the load is small.

This particular case was a mileage calibration I did for a motorhome that was operated for extended periods on flat level ground. I increased the EGR gas by about 20% and leaned the mixture to 16.5:1 at very light loads. It took a bunch of playing with to get it right, but once I found the lean limit and the dilution limit that still resulted in smooth engine operation at cruise, he picked up more than 15% fuel mileage. This was a bone stock efi 460 in an oshkosh stripped-chassis based motorhome. I hear from him all the time; retired guy...rolling around the US. It may also be interesting to note that this particular short-block has over 300K on it and is still running. It had about 150K on it when I saw it last.

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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
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OK, per the dyno, this 521 idles at around 14.5 AFR, which is fine. At 3,000 rpm steady it reads 10.5, which is too rich.

Carb is a 950 Proform (Holley) with these jets and valves:

Prim. #78
Sec. #86 with extensions
PV Prim - 45
PV Sec. Blocked
Idle Air Bleeds - .073
High Sp. Bleeds. - .031

I need recommendations on what to change to lean up the cruise. Smaller PV? Thanks! this is a great forum.
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Re: OT - Has anyone tuned with a wide band 02 sensor like LM

my bad i'm tunning an 850 hp turbo chevy....forgot i'm blow thru. those numbers work for me....doesn't stop pullin till i lift





Quote:
Originally Posted by 96Mustang460cid
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotstang3
i tune with one. make sure you perform the clean air calibration before you use it...follow the directions. you want the meter to read around 15.5 at idle and around 12.5 at cruise. wide open throttle needs to be around 10.5. if you see the meter spike to say 14 or 15 or 16 to 1 at wot you are way lean..... you will want to get the proper air bleeds in the carb and the idle mixture screws adjusted in just right for the 15 or 16 to 1 at idle... also don't leave the lm-1 on when the vehicle is not running cause it pre heats the 02 sensor when its on. you want to fire up the vehicle first and then turn on the lm-1 and then turn it off when you shut the car off. hope this helps


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdean
A friend of mine has this wide band 02 sensor and hand-held device that shows AFR in real time as the engine runs....from idle to WOT. He loaned it to me. To use it, you install a bung in your exhaust, or you can attach at the tail pipe. I went ahead and welded in an 02 bung at the collector, to check out my carb settings on my newly built 521.

My engine is on the dyno now. The dyno shop has what they think are all the measurements they need to tune the carb with the Superflow dyno, but they do not use 02 sensor, so I will install this and see if there if there is any difference in what it says vs. what they come up with.

Just curious if anyone has tried this method.
I think your numbers are off a touch hotstang3. 10.5 is rich on a N/A motor. You want about 12.5 at WOT and 14.5-15.? when at idle and cruising.


Have a good day!
Michael
:lol:
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 01:15 PM
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Jdean - to answer your question best, we'd also need to know how it reacts under full throttle at a couple of different RPM's (3000, 5000, 6000).

If you take fuel off at the top to correct your problem (your secondaries), it could adversely effect your higher RPM/load operation. If you take it off at the bottom (your primaries), it could adversely effect your low speed mixture/performance.

Your powervalve does not effect mixture at cruise, unless you have unusually low vacuum, and that is activating it.

Having said all that, I would guesstimate that reducing your Primaries a little bit, should improve the cruise mixture.

--Ed

91 Crown Victoria Ex-Police -- 460 powered! 14.3 at 97 MPH 1/4 mile with stock tires, 4000 lbs, stock 78 Town Car converter, C6, 3.08 gears.

87 Mercury Cougar XR7 -- T5 trans, 400 RWHP, supercharged 302!
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