I was watching the top fuelers @ Las Vegas and thinking... - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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I was watching the top fuelers @ Las Vegas and thinking...

...why don't they use turbos instead of blowers? Maybe I am missing something, but seems like there would be alot of power left on the table when powering the blower(like 8000hp is not enough :roll: )

Are they allowed to run a turbo?
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 07:47 PM
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I don't know about the rules, but two things come to mind: external combustion and throttle lag. I spoke with one of the drivers once and he said the thrust from the exhaust is so great that when they lose a cylinder that have steer into the thrust imbalance on the strong side. Turbos may be more efficient, but the external combustion rocket effect may be offsetting.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 07:48 PM
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Rules, plain & simple. Years ago, they were scared of the potential impact of allowing turbochargers & they were outlawed. Back in the old days, you could run anything, but as technology advanced, things settled into a pattern & what you see now is the result.

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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 08:28 PM
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Even with short zoomies there is back pressure present in the exhaust of a nitro engine, nitro burns about 7000 degrees and with the huge volume of fuel it's still burning on the way out, so even though the are headers ceramic coated they only last 6 to 8 runs before hole are burned in them.

If a turbo were placed in the exhaust system the back pressure would sky rocket, since you cannot use computers to controll anything even if you could over come the tuning problems from the variable cfm a turbo would produce I would think if you back up 7000 degree exhaust, that it would make very short work of everything from the turbo to the pistons turning them into a molten mass of junk.

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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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^^^ I suppose not many turbo parts would survive 7000dg. very long. Some very interesting points guys, thanks alot for the replys.

Just think of the possibilities of one of those engines w/o the parasitic losses of that huge blower, and a massive turbo(or 2) huffing all the air in the cylinders...

What kind of boost pressure do those blowers put out/how big are they?
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 09:01 PM
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I think I saw something about these engines on Horsepower TV :roll: They said they put out over 50psi of boost, but thats really all I can remember.
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordguy545
I think I saw something about these engines on Horsepower TV :roll: They said they put out over 50psi of boost, but thats really all I can remember.
They also said that a factory 350-400hp production engine wouldn't even be able turn their supercharger.
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 09:17 PM
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I thought there was a nitro burning turbocharged 4 cylinder car, but I can't find any info on it right now. Don't think it had a class to run in.

I think this is it

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/02...nycar_integra/
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jones
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Originally Posted by Fordguy545
I think I saw something about these engines on Horsepower TV :roll: They said they put out over 50psi of boost, but thats really all I can remember.
They also said that a factory 350-400hp production engine wouldn't even be able turn their supercharger.
If that is true I wonder how they can turn the engines over with those portable starters and manually also.
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ky mustang
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Originally Posted by jones
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Originally Posted by Fordguy545
I think I saw something about these engines on Horsepower TV :roll: They said they put out over 50psi of boost, but thats really all I can remember.
They also said that a factory 350-400hp production engine wouldn't even be able turn their supercharger.
If that is true I wonder how they can turn the engines over with those portable starters and manually also.
Ahhhh...... Maybe it's because they aren't making much boost at 200 rpm?

In Limbo at all times
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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 10:15 PM
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I read a very interesting article several years ago about this subject.
There was a TF team back in the early 80's that was doing a lot of experimenting and testing with a twin turbo'd Top Fuel combo.

The problems they were experiencing were many!! Mainly, the turbo's would spool up so quickly, that it would overpower the whole combo and blow up!! Remember, they did'nt have electronically controlled wastegates then, so by the time the boost pressure would spike, the wastegates could'nt react fast enough to bleed off the pressure.

Also, they had to dilute the fuel mixture with alcohol or methanol just to keep the exhaust temps down to everything would survive.
It certainly made more power than spinning the big power robbing roots type of blowers, but it was too uncontrolable.
Things happen too fast, and the technology just was'nt there to stay on top of it.

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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TorinoStyle2
I read a very interesting article several years ago about this subject.
There was a TF team back in the early 80's that was doing a lot of experimenting and testing with a twin turbo'd Top Fuel combo.

The problems they were experiencing were many!! Mainly, the turbo's would spool up so quickly, that it would overpower the whole combo and blow up!! Remember, they did'nt have electronically controlled wastegates then, so by the time the boost pressure would spike, the wastegates could'nt react fast enough to bleed off the pressure.

Also, they had to dilute the fuel mixture with alcohol or methanol just to keep the exhaust temps down to everything would survive.
It certainly made more power than spinning the big power robbing roots type of blowers, but it was too uncontrolable.
Things happen too fast, and the technology just was'nt there to stay on top of it.
You might read that article I have posted. He says point blank that Nitro does not burn hot...
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TorinoStyle2
Things happen too fast, and the technology just was'nt there to stay on top of it.
That's what I mean, with TODAY'S technology, things could be controlled to the point where it should be able to make it atleast down the track- which not even every other SC'd dragster does...
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-15-2007, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ky mustang
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Originally Posted by jones
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Originally Posted by Fordguy545
I think I saw something about these engines on Horsepower TV :roll: They said they put out over 50psi of boost, but thats really all I can remember.
They also said that a factory 350-400hp production engine wouldn't even be able turn their supercharger.
If that is true I wonder how they can turn the engines over with those portable starters and manually also.
That same fact is the following list of things on Top Fuel dragsters, some of these were found on Pacific Raceways web site along with some other sites, they are interesting to read thru, I don't know if they are all true or not, but it makes good conversation sometimes, one that I question is the twisting of the crank 20 degrees, anyone know on that?

Interesting Top Fuel Dragster Facts:

★ A Top Fuel Dragster develops twice as much G-Force (6 G’s) at launch as the space shuttle does achieving earth orbit.
★ A Top Fuel Dragster accelerates to 100 MPH in 0.8 seconds. (A catapult-assisted jet fighter takes almost 2 seconds.)
★ A Top Fuel Dragster will reach 0ver 300 MPH before you can read this sentence.
★ A Top Fuel Dragster can go from 0 to 330 MPH and back to 0 mph in less than 20 seconds.
★ To exceed 300 MPH in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at an average of over 4 G’s. But in reaching 200 MPH well before ˝ track, launch acceleration is closer to 8 G’s.
★ To give you an idea of this acceleration, the current Top Fuel ET is 4.47 seconds for the 1/4 mile. This means that you can be coming across the starting line in your average Lingenfelter powered “twin turbo” Corvette at 200 MPH (ON A FLYING START) and the Top Fuel Dragster (FROM A DEAD STOP) would beat you to the finish line in a 1/4 mile.
★ Top Fuel Dragster drivers experience a negative 7 G’s of force when they deploy their parachutes.
★ Under full throttle, a Top Fuel Dragster engine consumes 1 ˝ gallons of nitromethane per second, the same rate of fuel consumption as a fully loaded 747, but with 4 times the energy volume.
★ Top Fuel Dragsters and Funny Cars use 10 to 12 gallons of fuel from the time they start the engine until they cross the finish line. They will use up to 8 gallons on an aborted run.
★ Nitromethane fuel costs over $35.00 a gallon.
★ A Top Fuel engines ONLY turns 540 revolutions from light to light.
★ The redline is quite high at 9500 RPM.
★ A single cylinder on a Top Fuel HEMI engine produces 750 horsepower, which nearly equals the entire horsepower output of a NASCAR engine.
★ A Top Fuel Dragster HEMI engine produces more horsepower than all the cars in the first 4 rows at the NASCAR Daytona 500.
★ Top Fuel and Funny Car engines produce over 7000 horsepower, more than 43 average street cars.
★ On some Top Fuel teams, they change all the exhaust valves after every full 1,320 foot run.
★ The oil rings are changed after each pass, and the compression ring are changed if they are scuffed.
★ The upper rod bearings are replaced after each run, and the lower bearings are changed every 2nd run.
★ The supercharger takes more power to drive then a stock HEMI makes.
★ Top Fuel Dragsters twist the crankshaft as much as 20 degrees torsionally at the big end of the track, that sometimes the cam lobes are ground offset from front to rear to re-phase the valve timing closer to synchronization with the pistons.
★ Engine cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock.
★ Even with nearly 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into nearly-solid form before ignition.
★ Dual Magnetos apply 44 amps to EACH spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.
★ The magneto’s and coils are changed every 3 or so runs.
★ Spark plugs electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After ˝ way, the engine is dieseling from compression, and the glow of the exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting off it’s fuel flow.
★ If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburnt nitro builds up in those cylinders and then explodes with a force that can blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or blow the block in half.
★ At stoichiometric (exact) 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture (for nitro), the flame front of nitromethane measures 7050 degrees F.
★ Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
★ The large rear wing on a Top Fuel Dragster produces nearly 8000 pounds of down force. The front wing adds another 1500 pounds, the exhaust gases from a Top Fuel engine produces 800 pounds of down force at an engine speed of 8000 RPM, that is enough combined down force produced, that you could turn the track upside-down and the Top Fuel Dragster would still remain “glued” to the racing surface.
★ If all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and nothing breaks or blows-up, each run costs $1000.00 a second.

Rick
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-15-2007, 03:57 AM
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And dont forget the spectator side of things, turbo top fuelers would be no where near as loud as supercharged feulers and that is what draws the crouds,alot of noise .

Theo
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