BBF vs BBC yet again... - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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BBF vs BBC yet again...

I woke this one back up after two months... but the BBC heads are not really giving good reasons, just "because...."

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...28#post2494228

come to the rescue and school em if you like that kind of stuff.
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 11:50 AM
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who's the donkey who said factory sbc heads outflow 460 heads on the exhaust. thats ridiculous. a well ported SBC intake MIGHT outflow the exhaust on the 460

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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by windsor View Post
I woke this one back up after two months... but the BBC heads are not really giving good reasons, just "because...."

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...28#post2494228

come to the rescue and school em if you like that kind of stuff.
I read thru the entire thread. My 1st impression is the BBC guys just say BBCs rule or BBCs are the best choice or the BBC are cheaper to build. Nothing of real substance just a bunch of emotional opinions with no real basis to draw on. The BBF guys were much more articulate in giving reasons to run a BBF. More real world "engineering" facts not based on opinions. Also I saw unfounded critisizem of the BBF oiling system, another bit of lame hogwash and usually the guys that critisize the BBF oiling system have never built or run one, they are just going by hearsay or because their next-door neighbor's cousin's brother-in-law's grandfather spun a bearing in his Ford Flathead. IMO bottom line is this: the BBC guys are afraid of what can beat them. They are also afraid of losing the position they have held for years and years. I have studied the BBF since it's introduction in 1968 and I was not ready to "accept" it as a true Ford engine as I was a die-hard FE guy [and still are to this day] but I did note the many engineering differences between the BBF and the BBC and it was very clear to me what engine had the greatest potential. From bore/stroke, deck height, cam position, lifter diam. combuston chamber design for compression ratios, symeterical ports [intake and exhaust] engine balancing to casting both in material, manufacturing and machining tecniques among many other differences and advancements. I have several 385s in service in various applications and can tell you the 385 is among the best to come out of Detroit. One of the biggest mistakes most people made regarding this engine in the early days is "its just another BBC and should be tuned as such."....nothing further from the truth.
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 12:46 PM
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I looked HIGH and LOW for GM flow rates. i had A LOT of trouble finding anything other than stan weiss's data which...well.. was not a lot of unported info for GM big blocks. Simply put. theres a reason GM guys go aftermarket. They have to.
courtesy of stan weiss cyl head flow data as written
Chevy Factory iron.
L29 vortech heads stock valve - 242/142 @ 700.
Oval Port 049 heads stock valve - 268/177 @ 700

Ford factory iron
iron 429 heads stock valve -272/177 @ 700

there was some GM Rect port on there that outflowed ford on the exhaust. did not list pipe or no pipe...and also !!!!!!118 CC heads!!!!also of note it was damn near impossible to find as cast flow numbers of the factory GM iron stuff. when you went to the ported stuff. scotty J's D0VE's on there made the GM iron stuff look pretty sad.
I know scotty has some E7 or F3 stuff to compare to the Vortech heads, i'm sure they make the vortechs look sad. there were some of scotty's F3 ported on there but i left them off to keep the comparo as cast.
Lots of ford guys info from Members here, Scotty J, Charlie Evans, Dfree383 (guessing its the same guy) lol

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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RJP View Post
I read thru the entire thread. My 1st impression is the BBC guys just say BBCs rule or BBCs are the best choice or the BBC are cheaper to build. Nothing of real substance just a bunch of emotional opinions with no real basis to draw on. The BBF guys were much more articulate in giving reasons to run a BBF. More real world "engineering" facts not based on opinions. Also I saw unfounded critisizem of the BBF oiling system, another bit of lame hogwash and usually the guys that critisize the BBF oiling system have never built or run one, they are just going by hearsay or because their next-door neighbor's cousin's brother-in-law's grandfather spun a bearing in his Ford Flathead. IMO bottom line is this: the BBC guys are afraid of what can beat them. They are also afraid of losing the position they have held for years and years. I have studied the BBF since it's introduction in 1968 and I was not ready to "accept" it as a true Ford engine as I was a die-hard FE guy [and still are to this day] but I did note the many engineering differences between the BBF and the BBC and it was very clear to me what engine had the greatest potential. From bore/stroke, deck height, cam position, lifter diam. combuston chamber design for compression ratios, symeterical ports [intake and exhaust] engine balancing to casting both in material, manufacturing and machining tecniques among many other differences and advancements. I have several 385s in service in various applications and can tell you the 385 is among the best to come out of Detroit. One of the biggest mistakes most people made regarding this engine in the early days is "its just another BBC and should be tuned as such."....nothing further from the truth.
After reading 9 pages of Chevy this and Chevy that, with no real reason why they think they are better.. I'm glad you typed out what I was thinking...

I like the "Tim Lynch" stuff, these chevy guy's never really look into a book, just the cover.

Good post.

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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 01:33 PM
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i would like a chevy vs ford grude match every year instead of the bbf bash.were all of us from 460ford.com vs a chebby form.....
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by blown86hallet View Post
After reading 9 pages of Chevy this and Chevy that, with no real reason why they think they are better.. I'm glad you typed out what I was thinking...

I like the "Tim Lynch" stuff, these chevy guy's never really look into a book, just the cover.

Good post.
Thanks. Re: Tim Lynch post, The Chevy guys will lay claim to anything that remotly resembles a Chevy. About the only thing in common between the T/L engine and a BBC is they both have 8 Cylinders arrainged in a 90deg. V. Nothing will interchange between the two. Another point of interest is the Chevy guys will NEVER admit the Arias Hemi/Chevy is much closer in design to the Boss 429 head than anything else and since the Arias 3 pushrod head was a failure it forced them to use a much closer designed valve train to the B-429. In fact you ask a die hard Chevy guy "what makes it a Chevy?" You will get all sorts of tapdancing around the question...Bore centers? Nope, not with a stock 4.84" b/c and most race aftermarket parts are 4.9" or 5" b/c. Heads? all good "BBC" heads are symetrical port and not the siamezed ports stock BBCs have....they just named them "Pontiac" heads. Ever seen a Pontiac with those heads from the factory? Well then...It must be the bell housing bolt pattern. wrong again, almost all aftermarket blocks have a Mopar [round] bell bolt pattern similar to a Ford FE. OK, Chevy guys...one last chance here....It must be the timing cover....yeah, thats it, the timing cover. It looks like a Chevy timing cover so it must be a Chevy....
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks. Re: Tim Lynch post, The Chevy guys will lay claim to anything that remotly resembles a Chevy. About the only thing in common between the T/L engine and a BBC is they both have 8 Cylinders arrainged in a 90deg. V. Nothing will interchange between the two. Another point of interest is the Chevy guys will NEVER admit the Arias Hemi/Chevy is much closer in design to the Boss 429 head than anything else and since the Arias 3 pushrod head was a failure it forced them to use a much closer designed valve train to the B-429. In fact you ask a die hard Chevy guy "what makes it a Chevy?" You will get all sorts of tapdancing around the question...Bore centers? Nope, not with a stock 4.84" b/c and most race aftermarket parts are 4.9" or 5" b/c. Heads? all good "BBC" heads are symetrical port and not the siamezed ports stock BBCs have....they just named them "Pontiac" heads. Ever seen a Pontiac with those heads from the factory? Well then...It must be the bell housing bolt pattern. wrong again, almost all aftermarket blocks have a Mopar [round] bell bolt pattern similar to a Ford FE. OK, Chevy guys...one last chance here....It must be the timing cover....yeah, thats it, the timing cover. It looks like a Chevy timing cover so it must be a Chevy....
Shall I cut and paste some of this info?
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 02:07 PM
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i would like a chevy vs ford grude match every year instead of the bbf bash.were all of us from 460ford.com vs a chebby form.....
I have on an occasion or two thrown out a challenge to the BB Chevy crowd. Here is the challenge: 454 BBC vs 460 BBF stock +.030" clean up bore, stock stroke/stock rod length, Iron heads [factory stock] one 4 bbl carb, any CAST manifold, flat tappet cam, no power adders, we are compairing engines here, not N02 or superchargers. Has to be dynoed using available anywhere pump gasoline both run out of the same can. And the build budget of $5000.00 [+/-] Dynoing using Engine Masters scoring so we are NOT looking for peak hp but a overall hp/torque over a broad rpm range. Also using dyno numbers to calculate engine output since thats all an engine is...a means to turn a shaft, not installed in a car or boat because set-up and driver can and will sabotage the results we are looking for.
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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 02:11 PM
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Shall I cut and paste some of this info?
If you wish and if you do please post the link as I do not read or follow that forum it was posted on. I see enought pissing contests to last me a lifetime.
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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 02:20 PM
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I'm not bashing BBC's, I like all engines and makes however I prefer the Ford.

Now here's an interesting comparison. Back in the day when we were truck pulling. Each class had specific rules like cast iron intake manifolds, cast iron heads, factor block yadda yadda yadda. Typically you had 10 BBC's, one or two SBC's and a couple of BBF's and MAYBE one Mopar.

Stock two wheel drive 470ci limit class was RULED by one Mopar and one Ford and all the BBC's were fighting for 3rd on down on MOST occasions but not all.

Stock II 4X4 470ci limit was RULED by Two FE powered Ford's including ours....

Modified Two Wheel Drive 485ci limit was OWNED by one 385 series Ford....... and when I say OWNED I mean there just wasn't anything that could touch Donnie's 484ci Iron PI headed engine, PERIOD!

See a pattern here?

Now-adays the aftermarket parts have taken over truck pulling for the most part, that's kinda' why we got out of it in the early 90's because they were getting BIGGER and MORE EXPENSIVE!



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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 02:21 PM
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Shall I cut and paste some of this info?
X2

No some of it. ALL OF IT!!!!

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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 02:34 PM
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Stock II 4X4 470ci limit was RULED by Two FE powered Ford's including ours....
I said it b4, i'll say it again NEVER EVER count out an FE.

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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 04:52 PM
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I said it b4, i'll say it again NEVER EVER count out an FE.
I wholeheartedly agree. If you see some of the recent development work done on FEs it'll be around for a long time to come. Ask the Chevy crowd when was the last "W" [348-409] engine in a 'Win' column? FEs are still winning to this day, not bad considering the engine hasn't been installed in a car from the factory since 1970 and 76 in trucks. I equate the Chevy W engine to the FE since they were both introduced in passenger cars in 1958 so the engineering is on a equal footing and both were at the top of the option list. If anyone bothers to look at the last Engine Masters they will see a few FEs that qualified and if anyone looked closer at torque curves you would see how flat the FE's torque curves are, making relativly big numbers at a low rpm. FYI: I use Engine Masters for examples because that is the only engine building contest where the rules are as equal as possible for all engine combos and to set the bar for the builders themselves. You can't fairly compare a 2 x 4 tunnelrammed 13 to 1 engine to a dual plane, single 4bbl. 9 to 1 engine and the scoring method is more real world, eliminates the engines that are designed to make their peak numbers at 8000 rpm.
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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No doubt an FE can hold its own, and EM is definite proof of that!

anyone see that 427 cammer build up in this month's Hot Rod mag? Sick!

Last edited by windsor; 06-24-2009 at 05:22 PM.
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