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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-23-2011, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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Ever wonder why?

I have a question. Why is that when our engines were new they seemed to last longer than ones that have been rebuilt? Even when you do it right! What did the factory engine assemblers do that was so magic? We have some of the best engine builders in the world on this site using some of the best parts in the world. Yet if I bought an engine from you, it would be a great engine, but I donít think it would last 20 years like the ones did from the factory. Can anyone explain why this is? What technically causes this?
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-23-2011, 10:10 PM
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Well for me i beat the crap out of my engines.
I had a 408SBC last 7 years of hell.
car ran 10.70 with 100shot.
Its death came due to a slight miss shift will on the jug and revlimiter
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-24-2011, 07:14 AM
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if it was spec,d for longevity and turned slow im sure it would last just as long. auto makers have also come a looong way in the quality of the parts & machine work

ffr roadster ,468, eddy heads ,tremec 5spd ,3L27 irs
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-24-2011, 06:50 PM
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My old 351c with 500hp lasted just alittle over 6 years and 50,000 miles turned it 7000 rpms a few times until one of the fsctory valve decide to loose a head.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-24-2011, 07:06 PM
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A factory engine has all brand new parts. A rebuilt has a used block ,crank, rods and and whatever else. Sometimes heads are old and were run hot in a previous build. A good way to ruin a motor is put a big cam and stiff valve springs on reground original valves. Break a head off of a valve will usually wreck a motor. I agree with the top post that rebuilds don't usually seem to last as long even when used for a stock application. Probably has alot to do with quality of machine work and cleanliness during assembly
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-24-2011, 07:30 PM
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I don't agree. A properly rebuilt engine should and does last longer than the OEM engine. When rebuilding you are starting off with a "seasoned" block, its finished moving around and settling whereas a green casting has just started to move. Also found OEM block decks to be all over the map from front to back and side to side. A good machine shop will square deck the block in a quality rebuild and set the piston deck heights correctly. A reground crank done properly the pin indexing should be closer than a factory ground crank among other criteria [like bearing clearance, fillet radius, etc.]. Rods: reconditioned rods should be exactly the same length and width whereas the factory rods are pulled from a large box of rods and subject to factory tolerances in both in measurements and weights. Balancing: a factory balance has alot more +/- tolerance than a custom balance done by a quality machine shop. With all that said I will agree that in the last 10-15 years OEM engines are alot more precision with much closer factory tolerances than in the past. This is because all Mfgs have to warrant their emission controls for 100K miles and if the engine starts blowing oil at 80K they are liable for the repairs as oil will destroy a cat. converter. So cylinder and ring seal is part of the emission control system. I'm not going to get into cylinder head, valve seal cams etc. as I think I made my point.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2011, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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RJP I would like to know more about the moving around of the block you are speaking of. I not trying to get smart with you, just interested in the technical aspects of it. You are right about the newer vehicles. I guess I was wondering why it is you see a lot of cars with the original engines still going after all these years. I myself have never gotten more than about 5 years out of a rebuild. Then again I never had alot of money for REAL good rebuild either.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2011, 07:32 PM
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Gal60, The "moving around" I speak of is a new, fresh out of the molds block/head will develop internal stresses from the cooling procedure. A block or any other intricate casting will cool at different rates in different sections of the casting, this will develop internal stresses only stress relieving will eliminate or repeated heating and cooling cycles the engine goes thru during it's normal lifespan. No production engine[block] is put thru the stress relieve process except high performance/race blocks such as the 427 FE, these were cast on their own casting line and were stress relieved by controlled cooling over a period of time in a special cooling tunnel dedicated to the 427 blocks only. I would much rather start with a 150K mile 460 say, out of a Lincoln or Merc stationwagon for a good rebuild rather than start with a brand new block. Of course there are exceptions such as the need for a A-460 block that are generally available new only. But for a street type rebuild of a bread and butter 460 IMO the well used core is a better start than a new block. [To add] GAl60, I'd like to address your statement regarding your poor experences with rebuilt engines. Please note that I qualified the subject with a "quality" rebuild" as opposed to the budget production-line "rebuilt" engines. A quality rebuilt engine for a street machine should include but not limited to a align bore/hone, bored and plateau honed cylinders with a plate, square decking and setting piston deck heights, checking lifter bore alignment and some go as far as to check concentricity of the bell housing flange to insure proper alignment to the clutch/flywheel. This accompanies the usual hot tank, baking or chemical cleaning of the block, crank, rods etc. The rods should be reconditioned with lengths equalized, new bolts and the big ends redone. Pistons can need attention before installation as well. New Main, rod and cam bearings with clearances set to whatever specifications the application calls for. As mention above the rotating assembly balanced. The above just covers the short block only, cam, heads, exhaust, intake and supporting hardware will be determined by the application of its intended use. This is where your machine shop should be able to help you make the right choices when purchasing your supporting hardware. When done the pricetag will be far and above that of the budget "rebuilt" production line rebuild.

Last edited by RJP; 01-25-2011 at 07:53 PM.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2011, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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RJP you are right about that, none of those rebuilds are what I would have called quality rebuild. I have however just had one rebuilt by a gentleman that builds Nito Dragboats and it was about twice the price of the other rebuilds I have had. Most, if not all of the work you mentioned was performed on this build. I have yet to fire it up, but it promises to be a good one. I do thank you for the technical information on block movement. Its something I had never thought about. I will let you know how this build turns out. If its good I will promptly place foot in mouth-Jim
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2011, 12:24 PM
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Gal60 I would beinterested in hearing how your rebuilt engine turns out. Also your screen name peaks my interest as well. Tell me about your 60 Galaxie, I assume that is what your screen name represents...right?
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2011, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Yes sir, it is a 60 galaxie starliner, mild 60's traditional custom. Dark turquoise with white metal flake roof, painted steel wheels, wide white walls, beauty rings and spider caps. The engine is a 466 D1 block, zero decked with SP hyper dished pistons, and ARP rod bolts. Cam is a X4262H Comp. Heads are ported DOVE's with CJ Valves and Comp Magnum roller rockers. Intake is port matched Blue thunder dual quad with twin Holley 465's and factory type linkage. Transmission is a C-6, with TCI rebuild kit, and "Factory High Stall" Converter. I have not changed the rear gears yet which are 300's. (gas mileage, low on funds right now,etc) In the future I hope to add air ride and one of those wourth-it rack and pinion conversion kits. Will try to post picks one of these days. What are you working on right now?
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2011, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAL60 View Post
I have a question. Why is that when our engines were new they seemed to last longer than ones that have been rebuilt? Even when you do it right! What did the factory engine assemblers do that was so magic? We have some of the best engine builders in the world on this site using some of the best parts in the world. Yet if I bought an engine from you, it would be a great engine, but I donít think it would last 20 years like the ones did from the factory. Can anyone explain why this is? What technically causes this?
Because the stock engines do not make s***t for power and will not turn any RPM.........i.m.o.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2011, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you Lem. What did the early model 460's feel like when they were new? Did they seem to pull and move out ok, or were they lacking. Sorry for such a silly question, but I was born in 77' and will never know.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2011, 07:04 PM
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for stocker type rebuilds, most of the short term failures I see are due to a few common issues.

Rebuild takes a long time and short block sits in a garage and dirt/bugs/light rust gets in it. That stuff also gets in the oil pan, but that's easier to clean out. Along same lines, could be complete long block but it isn't sealed up enough to keep stuff out. A bunch of asian ladybugs going down an open 5/8" breather tube to nest over winter in a valve cover will quickly get washed down into the pan and clog up the oil pickup screen (experienced that one myself).

Old parts are used when they're actually too worn out. Rocker arms, pushrods, valve springs. Then it only takes a few years for one to mess up and cause more problems.

Old carb floods new engine and washes down cylinders in critical initial moments along with trashing the oil and that sets the engine up for early cam failure.

Distributor not set right and so detonation kills the engine in no time.

Old radiator/heater hoses. If they're 20+ years old, your odds aren't good that they'll stay good for another 20 years like they did for the original engine.

I personally rebuilt a 300 straight six for a friend's brother who blew his old one after it overheated bad with very low oil. My rebuild lasted a whole week. I told him to replace his leaky radiator asap and not drive more than a half hour without checking and topping up until it was replaced. He called about 2 hours from home and said my engine was knocking and then wouldn't stay running or start. Of course the rad. wasn't changed and it was cooked.

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2011, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAL60 View Post
Yes sir, it is a 60 galaxie starliner, mild 60's traditional custom. Dark turquoise with white metal flake roof, painted steel wheels, wide white walls, beauty rings and spider caps. The engine is a 466 D1 block, zero decked with SP hyper dished pistons, and ARP rod bolts. Cam is a X4262H Comp. Heads are ported DOVE's with CJ Valves and Comp Magnum roller rockers. Intake is port matched Blue thunder dual quad with twin Holley 465's and factory type linkage. Transmission is a C-6, with TCI rebuild kit, and "Factory High Stall" Converter. I have not changed the rear gears yet which are 300's. (gas mileage, low on funds right now,etc) In the future I hope to add air ride and one of those wourth-it rack and pinion conversion kits. Will try to post picks one of these days. What are you working on right now?
Sounds like a neat car, post pics when you can. I also have a 60 Starliner, orig. a 360hp/352, now a 460+.030", D0VE-C heads 2.19/1.72" valves, Blue Thunder intake with a 3310 Holley. CJ C6 R servo and also has 3.00 gears. Body is bone stock [MonteCarlo Red] but has 8.5" x 15" American Torque Thrust wheels and Radial T/As. I've owned it since 1967 and has been thru many different engine/trans combos.
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