Charlies cylinder head pecking order thread? - 460 Ford Forum
Chilly's Garage A place for non-460 banter.

User Tag List

LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 4 (permalink) Old 02-11-2006, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Charlies cylinder head pecking order thread?

Anyone else, know if the thread Charlie Evans started or answered, where he listed all the 460 heads in order made it to the new site. I did a search but could not find it. I am most interested in the A family order.
Thanks, Mike
9secfairlane is offline  
Sponsored Links
post #2 of 4 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 07:41 AM
Senior Member
Homespun91's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Peoria, IL...more or less
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

I couldn't find the thread either, but here's a copy I saved a while back. Actually, he did this twice; so here's the first version, including a question & answer about IDT heads, & the later version. Good stuff!

1) "I pretty much agree with what Rob has said, I just want to offer my opinion and also clarify a couple of things.

The history of the A-460 heads started out with Mike and Rick Smith designing the head back in the '80s. Most of those heads had a TFS logo on the ends of the head in square block style letters. Then the rights to the head were sold to Ford and Ford sold them through their SVO channels with the Motorsports logo on the ends of the heads. Then in the mid '90s TFS was sold to Summit Racing and they bought back the rights from Ford and started selling the heads again. Meanwhile Ford had upgraded to the C-460 Yates design head and sold them through FRPP, so they had no need for an A-460 style head. Back to Summit/TFS, by now the patterns and molds where worn out and they had porosity issues, so they dropped the head out of production for a couple/three years while they were retooling.

During this time frame,(late 90s, early 2000s) both Flow Technologies and IDT Eliminator were making a copy of the same basic A-460 design and came out with their respective versions of the head. Each company made refinements and improvements on the original design. There is absolutely nothing wrong or "inferior" with the Eliminator 900 series head, nor likewise the EX514 head. The main issue I see, is more dependent on who you have to actually do the porting, valve job and bowl blending. By that I mean the machine shop/engine builder/headporter. There are some really stupid "pretenders" out there, that think they do good work, but they don't.

Back to the story. As I said, Summit/TFS was retooling and they introduced their new style A-460 head which has a large flat area on the end of the head, with the TFS A-460 logo engraved in the end of the head. The old porosity issues were taken care of and the intake and exhaust ports were improved so much, that they were nearly a "ported head as cast". However, Lem and I took the third new style head they made and did our R&D work on it in order to come up with our CNC porting program for the new style TFS A-460 heads. Since then with the help of Lawes Mayfield, we have been doing continous R&D on these heads, while all at the same time we've ported dozens and dozens of them. Improvements are ongoing.

Lem sells all the FRPP heads and he also sells all the TFS heads through his Ford dealership. That was our choice and it is not to say anything bad about the EX514 or the Eliminator heads.

I slightly disagree with something you said about the "other choice" being the BT heads for big horsepower engines. IMO the FRPP SCJ head will make more power than the Blue Thunder CJ head because, the intake flow is so much better through a port that is essentially the same size as the BT CJ heads. The BT "B" head with the Chevy flange pattern will come close because of it's better breathing exhaust port, but it's intake port is deficient to the FRPP SCJ head.

By the way, there are 3 different Blue Thunder CJ style heads. All three have the same intake port but one has the Ford exhaust port in the standard location, one has the Ford exhaust port that is raised 5/8ths of an inch, and the last has the Chevy style flange pattern. In addition to the 3 styles of heads, there are different chamber volumes available. One of the problems with the BT parts is they are frequently unavailable or on backorder for several months. Just ask NMCA/Pro/Edelbrock racer Dave Meister how hard he tried to find a set of BT "B" heads.

Stick BBF, you mentioned that the TFS Street Heat head and the older A-429 CJ heads along with ported iron DOVE heads were used on the smaller engines in the 466 to 521 CID range. This is true, and we can throw the Edelbrock heads and DOOE-R heads in that mix also. Generally the bigger the engine the "bigger" (in terms of flow) the cylinder heads are. The exception occurs when you put big flowing heads such as A,B,C,D,or E-460 heads on small CID engines, then you have to buzz those engines in regards to rpm in order to make them work. Truck pullers such as Terry Bumgarner in Missouri and Bryan Matthews in Georgia, amongst others, amaze me with their small 470 or 485 CID engines that they are buzzing to 9000 - 9500 rpm like a NHRA Pro Stocker.

Hope this helps,

1a- question) "Hey Charlie, you didn't mention the availability of "800 series" IDT Eliminator heads in that mix.
Same port and valve layout with a different chamber and raised FORD exhaust pattern; and production intake manifold bolt pattern.
They will be run on an engine at the "Engine Master's Contest" this coming Monday for an actual testament, LOL."

1a-reply) "I actually had typed them in and then I thought why confuse the answer when there may be a question as to their availabilty and/or backorder status. So then I deleted that part.

So for everybodies clarification, what Randy has told you guys is correct. Essentially an A-460 head design with Ford OEM production exhaust bolt pattern and Ford OEM production intake bolt patterns. To run an Edelbrock Victor or FRPP G-429/H-429 intake manifold on these heads requires a 1.0" thick flange spacer and a 1.5" thick china wall spacer. You need to call IDT Eliminator if you want a set."

2) "Mike,

We've done this before and I think maybe somebody put it in the Engine Build Section, but if not I'll go over it again.

It helps if you divide all the heads into four major families. The four families are;

I. Hemi Heads;
top to bottom the order is;
1. B-441
2&3 (tie) A-441, and the billet Indy Cylinder Head Hemi
4. Original Boss 429 production heads.

II. Pro Stock Wedge Heads;
Fords FRPP C-460, D-460, & E-460 heads. Also Profiler's C-460 Replacement head. TFS's B-460 Bastard Pro Stock heads, and the Blue Thunder Thor head belong in this family. The pecking order is debatable, and certainly the size of the engine that you intend to use them on comes into play here. I'd suggest that the order from top to bottom may be;
1. Blue Thunder Thor for big inch wedges 650+ CID
2. E-460 FRPP for NHRA Pro Stock
3. D-460 FRPP
4&5 (tie) C-460 Replacement head or FRPP C-460 are on the same level.
6. TFS B-460 Bastard Pro Stock heads

III. A-460 Heads;
Original TFS and Ford Motorsport heads, also the new style TFS A-460 heads, the Eliminator 900 Series A-460, and the EX 514 heads. The EX 514 is available in cast iron also. The ranking on these heads is again debatable but I'd say at the top of the list we have a 3-way tie with the;
1,2,&3 New style TFS A-460, EX514 and the Eliminator 900 series.
4. The older TFS and Ford Motorsports A-460 castings.

IV. The standard Ford Production Heads;
In this family we have several heads including both cast iron OEM production and aftermarket alum. heads. I'd suggest that the pecking order would be;
1. FRPP Kaase designed SCJ and the soon to be released Kaase designed P-51 head.
2. The Blue Thunder "B" head which is the one with the raised exhaust port and the Chevy style flange pattern.
3&4 (tied) Blue Thunder with the raised exhaust port and Ford bolt pattern, and the TFS Street Heat head, again with a raised exhaust port and Ford bolt pattern.
5,6,7,8,9&10 Big log jam here, but we have the old Ford A-429 heads, the Blue Thunder CJ head with standard exhaust port location, the old style TFS CJ head, and the three different versions of the Edelbrock RPM/CJ heads.
11,12&? We have the cast iron production DOOE-R CJ head and the DOVE heads along with others such as the Police Interceptor head and etc. I am not saying these cast iron heads are any worse than the big batch of alum. heads I listed right above. They just heavier!

Probally more importantly than the pecking order of the heads is who you choose to do the valve job, the porting and flow testing of the heads. In other words, the quality of the work. I have a seen good quality Blue Thunder "B" heads outflow poor quality EX 514 heads for example and they are in two different families. What I'm saying is as head that is lower in the pecking order can surpass a head that is above it due to being properly prepped.

Hope this helps,


IN: Staring adversity in the face while working on your car and coming out on top

OUT: Finally realizing that every $%&# thing you touch on your car turns to adversity
Homespun91 is offline  
post #3 of 4 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks Homespun91
Thats the one I was looking for. Its very cool that there are a lot of smart people on here that are willing to help avarage Joes such as myself.
Thanks, Mike
9secfairlane is offline  
post #4 of 4 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 06:48 PM
Senior Member
Danny Cabral's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,615
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)

May God's Grace Bless You

'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, custom traction bars, 4" lift, 35" mud tires
Danny Cabral is offline  
Sponsored Links

Quick Reply

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the 460 Ford Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
BORE SIZE WITH C460'S GREG H Engine Tech 2 03-08-2008 08:31 PM
driveability of purely street cars above 600hp? chilly Engine Tech Archive 0 05-09-2006 11:11 AM
C-Head info on smaller bores (revised 6/3/06) DJOHAGIN Engine Build Archive 1 04-30-2006 07:35 PM
Boss 429 oiling- way over my head... chilly Engine Tech Archive 0 02-09-2006 07:38 PM
Mr. Kaase: Possible date of P51 Heads availability? chilly Engine Tech Archive 0 02-09-2006 07:32 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome