E40D Vs C6 Economy - Page 2 - 460 Ford Forum
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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I use my pickup to haul stuff when I need to as well as pull my trailer from time to time. I didn't realize that there were shift kits for a transmission that uses an electronically controlled valve body.

I built the C6 that's in my truck about 10 years ago and it's a totally stock transmission except for having the "CJ" direct drum and a Transgo shift kit. The transmission works great and shifts perfectly. Back a long time ago I had a problem after I built a new engine for the truck in that I couldn't manage to adjust the modulator to keep it from wanting to shift out early and soft. The engine just had so much more vacuum so after getting some advice here on the forum I made a new rod for behind the modulator and that made the shift points happen correctly again.

I would say that a fresh but mostly stock E40D would be just fine behind my 460 which dynoed at 330 horsepower and 500lbs/ft torque. Building some sort of TPS setup wouldn't be very difficult so I guess the first thing to do is going to be to find a "core". Something from a 90 to about a '92 model should be good as long as it has the mechanical spedometer.

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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 03:40 PM
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im running 480hp with a 700r4 and it has held up fine for 3 years with lots of 1/4 passes some with nitrous. they will work with your hp but if your towing a large trailer it may be to light of a trans no controller needed with a 700r4 and they have a lockup converter

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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 04:31 PM
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I know were there is a 4r70W out of a 96 Mustang for 200.00
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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 05:07 PM
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The AOD, AOD-E, 4R70, 4R70W, 4R75, etc. "family" of transmissions were never offered by Ford behind anything bigger than a 302 (save for 351Ws put in '80s-'91 Crown Vic police cars) and, as such, do not come in any bellhousing patterns other than the small block V8 pattern (3.8 V6, 221, 260, 289, 302, 351W and C, 240 & 300 inline 6).

People make conversion adapters so that you can bolt an AOD-line of transmission behind a 385-series engine, but those conversion bellhousing adapters and necessary hardware generally run $700-800 unless you score one for a screaming deal, which is a pretty rare deal.



You can't simply find an AOD/AOD-E/4R70/whatever to bolt up behind a 429 or 460 because Ford never cast such a piece. A 4R70W out of a '96 Mustang would have the late model 4.6/5.4/6.8 V10 bellhousing.


EDIT:

I'm not trying to hijack the OP's thread, but turbo2256, while I commend you for suggesting what you have, I don't think you're quite accurate/familiar with the information you're providing.

The AOD-E/AODE (which had a 2.40 first gear just like the AOD) was what Ford designated the electronic "AOD" replacement transmission up until roughly '95. Once the 4.6 powered Mustangs and trucks came out in '96, the designation was retroactively changed to 4R70 (no suffix...no E...just 4R70) and the '96+ model year vehicles (Mustangs, trucks, full-size rear wheel drive passenger cars) powered by 3.8 & 4.2 liter V6s, 4.6 V8s and SOME 5.4 V8s had the 4R70W transmission behind them - the W being a designation for "wide ratio."

An AXOD or AXODE/AXOD-E is a front wheel drive transaxle that came in 3.0 and 3.8 V6 powered cars and minivans like the Taurus, Sable, Lincoln Continental, Windstar van, etc.

An A4LD which morphed into the A4LD-E, then 4R44E, 4R55E and 5R55E. This transmission or series of transmissions are/were found behind 2.3 liter 4s, 2.8 V6s, 2.9 V6s, 3.0 V6s and 4.0 V6s in the likes of Mustangs, Rangers, Bronco IIs, Explorers, etc.

Last edited by Zac; 02-14-2012 at 05:28 PM.
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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 05:29 PM
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AOD avail 91 thru 93 Ford pickups and vans with 460s. Thanks for breaking it all down zac. The Mustag trans I have would just be used for its guts in a AOD have a couple AODs around too. I am not realy an aotomatic guy. At least wouldnt do much more than a VB or shift kit. Took classes in it but felt as a mechanic without a way to dyno test them after a rebuild I wouldnt get into the auto rebuild business. I would do a manual though or a rear.

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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2256b View Post
AOD avail 91 thru 93 Ford pickups and vans with 460s
That's inaccurate.

If you read it online somewhere, the source you're citing is inaccurate. Ford NEVER offered the AOD/AODE/4R70-series of transmission in any vehicle, beyond Crown Victoria cop cars that had carbed 351Ws (up to '91), behind an engine bigger than a 302.

If it's a Ford truck and has the original Ford drivetrain in it, if it has a 351W/5.8 or 460/7.5 if either had a C6 (up to '89 for most trucks...up through '91 for special ordered models like F450s) or an E4OD in it, if not a ZF 5S-42 or ZF 5S-47 manual.
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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 05:51 PM
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Dave, any thought of just doing the E4OD gears in a C6 and regearing the rear end? Still only 3 gears, but the first, and to a lesser degree, second gear, woke my truck up, and I still kept the mild 3.25s for third gear. No electronics, fabbing, or anything special needed on the truck.
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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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Right now the truck has plenty of power for my needs. The 460 runs great but running it on the interstate could be made better if it had higher gearing. My pickup is a '79 F350 two wheel drive Camper Special equipped with a Dana 70. The highest gear set I can get for it is about a 3.55 and while that's going in the right direction from the 4.10's it's probably not high enough to really be worth the effort. There were Dana 70's with 3.08 gears used in some non Ford trucks but those housings are made differently with an altered pinion location so they are different.

That's why I was thinking that the E40D swap might make a fun worthwhile project that wouldn't be terribly difficult.

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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-15-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMcLain View Post
Right now the truck has plenty of power for my needs. The 460 runs great but running it on the interstate could be made better if it had higher gearing. My pickup is a '79 F350 two wheel drive Camper Special equipped with a Dana 70. The highest gear set I can get for it is about a 3.55 and while that's going in the right direction from the 4.10's it's probably not high enough to really be worth the effort. There were Dana 70's with 3.08 gears used in some non Ford trucks but those housings are made differently with an altered pinion location so they are different.

That's why I was thinking that the E40D swap might make a fun worthwhile project that wouldn't be terribly difficult.


Yeah, I was going to comment that simply swapping the R&P to a taller (lower numerically) gearset and leaving the C6 in the rig might be an easier and less expensive venture, but then you'd lose the torque multiplication of the 4.10 gears for towing/hauling/low speed grunt and acceleration.

I think you have a good basis in this thread to follow. Over the course of the E4OD/4R100-family of units, there were several updates and upgrades that Ford made to the unit(s) that prove to be a very worthwhile piece to include when you're building one - be it for a high power application or just for something you want to live as long as possible. Likewise, Ford made some updates to the units that proved to be detrimental to the longevity and capability of the transmissions. There's enough info found in a general Google search on these units to guide you to specific parts and modifications you should think about including in your units when you build one.

And to go back to an earlier reply in the thread...yeah even electronically controlled units and and will benefit from a shift improvement kit and, specifically, a "tuneable" (if you will) trans controller or reprogramming of the factory powertrain control module (in a rig that originally came with said transmission). The tuning of the controller, as I said, can and will allow you to change the shifting characteristics (line pressure, speed at which the shift is actuated, etc.) based on the driving characteristics the control module sees at any specific time...if you're just cruising along and not laying your foot into the stupid pedal, you might have the controller set up so that the transmission shifts at a lower vehicle speed and makes a softer shift more in tune with just normal driving. However, you can have that controller/PCM also programmed so that is sees if you're giving the foot-feed plenty of leg (i.e. you're hauling/towing a heavy load and accelerating from a stop), it might bump up the line pressure and make the shifts crisper and faster so as to prevent slip/flare-ups between gears when the rig/drivetrain is loaded pretty good.

I have no vested interest in Baumann nor any reason to promote them over anybody else. I've simply used their controllers and am familiar with them and know they're fairly simple and work well. www.becontrols.com
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-15-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMcLain View Post
Right now the truck has plenty of power for my needs. The 460 runs great but running it on the interstate could be made better if it had higher gearing. My pickup is a '79 F350 two wheel drive Camper Special equipped with a Dana 70. The highest gear set I can get for it is about a 3.55 and while that's going in the right direction from the 4.10's it's probably not high enough to really be worth the effort. There were Dana 70's with 3.08 gears used in some non Ford trucks but those housings are made differently with an altered pinion location so they are different.

That's why I was thinking that the E40D swap might make a fun worthwhile project that wouldn't be terribly difficult.
Ahhhhhh ok. I didn't realized it was geared so numerically high. I did a change from 3.5s to 3.25s for reasons unrelated to gearing numbers and I can say that the difference in cruise RPM was neglible. Tire size was more of a factor. I'm following this thread with interest.
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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-15-2012, 10:27 AM
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How about just changing the gears in the rear end to give yourself a final drive ratio with the C6 that's equivalent to the E40D in OD?

E40D .71 OD x 4.10's = 2.91.

You could run some 3.00's with the C6 and call it good, or at least see how it effects your mileage before going through all the hassle and expense of the swap.

I used to run 3.07's with 32 inch tires in my Scout and got 18mpg out of the 2bbl 345. Worked great. I could pull long grades in 2nd at 60mph and third gear was like OD in modern vehicles. Most guys I knew with Scouts were running 3.73's and 4.10's and getting 8-12mpg. I also had a TeraLow T-case to get the gearing down where it needed to be in 4-Lo, but you don't need to worry about that.

EDIT: Didn't see the part about gears not being available for the rear end. Still, changing to a nine inch rear might be easier.

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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-17-2012, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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I have a customer who buys and sells scrap, junk cars etc and when I asked him the other day he said that he thought he had an E40D core in about a '91 Ford pickup which should be perfect. I told him to bring it so that I can do some measuring. I know the overall transmission is longer but is it longer in the big fat part of the transmission or is that part a similar length?

I was under the truck yesterday and I think that about the only problem areas might be where my exhaust pipe from the left side runs and then crosses over to the right, maybe. And the only other potential problem might me interference with the front fuel tank which mounts inside of the frame on the left side. Parking brake cable runs through there but I don't see it being a problem. I'm thinking that it might even be possible to use the same cross member just cut the rivets, drill new holes and then bolt the brackets back into the frame rails a little farther back.

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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-27-2012, 11:28 AM
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I looked at doing this back some time ago for my dually. I researched the crap out of it & came to the conclusion that your looking at somewhere in the $3000 range to get everything to do it & thats if you can do some of it yourself.
My conclusion was to go with a set of 3:55 gears for my truck because thats the highest available for a Dana 70 rear end.
I just read about doing a 700r4 conversion on another post & I'm going to start another post to get some replies about this swap to see if it's worth it.
From my research it a hole lot of money for this conversion.

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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 10-06-2018, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
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I know that years have passed since this thread was active but I've now FINALLY done the swap from the C6 to an E4OD transmission in my 79 F350 2 wheel drive pickup. A friend who builds transmissions got me a couple of cores, one for a case and one for hard parts including an output shaft with a speedometer provision. I built the transmission using those parts along with some updated parts including a roller style center support and newer style front pump. I also used the Transgo 4R100 "Tugger" shift kit and I'm controlling the whole thing with a US Shift Quick 2 computer.

All in all the change over was pretty straightforward and really the biggest factor is the overall length of the transmission vs the C6. The E4OD is about 4 inches longer than the C6 so I ended up having to make the front portion of the drive shaft shorter by 4 inches, put a dent in the front of the gas tank and make a new transmission cross member to get it to fit. I had to change out the speedometer cable to one that would plug into the speed sensor of the E4OD, flexplate and driveshaft yokes remained the same and the headers clear the new trans just like they did with the C6.

The shift lever is farther back on the E4OD so I had to build a "jack leg" linkage so that the rod from the steering column could attach just like it did on the C6. This wasn't too tough because the E4OD happens to have two nice bolt bosses in just about the right place to support the linkage.

My existing C6 cooler lines worked out pretty well with the E4OD the sizes were the same and while the front one hooked right up I had to add about 12 inches of line to reach the back fitting, no big deal.

Speaking of bolt bosses the E4OD is sort of weird in the bolt sizing department. While it says "Metric" on the bottom of the oil pan all of the fasteners that attach to the transmission are NOT metric. For instance the bolt bosses on the side are tapped 3/8-16!

Installing the Quick 2 controller took some time but it was pretty straightforward. The box itself has to be mounted in the passenger compartment so I put mine inside of the already virtually non existent due to AC glove box. I had to install a TPS on my Holley carburetor and run wiring for that along with running wires to the transmission solenoid connector, speed sensor and PRNDL switch. The neutral safety and backup light circuits also had to be rewired to work with the new switch.

How does it work?

So far, so good. I'm still waiting on my correct speedometer gear because the E4OD has a different number of drive teeth on the output shaft than the C6 but the transmission seems to shift well. Programming the Quick 2 is easy enough using their software on my PC and connecting using a USB cable. Driving around town it acts almost exactly the same as the C6. Low and 2nd are lower but I don't think its all that noticeable. Out on the road the truck is amazingly different. I put in a switch to turn the OD on and off as needed and it is astonishing to switch it on and off when running about 60mph. Normally in the past I would only run the truck about 62-65mph on the highway but now rolling along at 70-72mph happens at about 2250rpm which is just right.

Today I should have my speedometer gear and I'm planning on driving the truck to the city today to get the exhaust system finished up and to pick up a few things. I'm going to check the MPG and see how it does. In the past the truck would get about 10mpg running at under 65mph with the C6. Will I be able to get 12 while running 70? We'll see...

I can't see how the transmission will ever pay for itself in fuel economy because I just don't use the truck all that much. But if it makes the truck more practical to use on the highway it will be worth the effort.

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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 10-08-2018, 11:56 AM
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Dave,hate to tell you this but your mileage won't improve much.It will,however, improve your driving pleasure.As far as the Tugger kit,just got done with a 98 Power Stroke 4R100 and never noticed a whole lot of driveability improvement but the durability improvements probably makes it worth the money.Takes a while to put them in...even on the bench! My car has a 460,4R70W,Bendtsen adapter,Quick 4.Bauman set it up and it short shifts,OD at 25 mph.Kinda know how to reprogram the thing but it might be above my skill level.Any tips??
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