E40D Vs C6 Economy - 460 Ford Forum
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-12-2012, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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E40D Vs C6 Economy

I was talking with a friend who does nothing but transmissions and I asked him what he thought it would cost to build an E40D transmission for my '79 1 ton pickup and he thought I could do it for $1500 or so and I'm wondering how much it would help fuel economy vs the C6. Any ideas? After watching the news this evening and seeing how fuel prices might swing to $4 soon if it would get 20% better economy it could pay for itself quickly.

My truck has 4.10 gears with a 33 inch tall tire and right now without an overdrive the truck is very "overgeared". Running 60 vs 70 already makes a big difference. I get about 12mpg now.

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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-12-2012, 08:22 PM
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Don't forget about a standalone TCM to control the e4. I havnt priced one but id they're pricey.

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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-12-2012, 10:01 PM
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You need the stand alone controller and wiring harness, that is going to run you $500 to $600 alone. You want a good converter and sounds like you have a good contact for the transmission itself. You will need to have the driveshaft shortened and a little work on the crossmember. I am sure it is a little heavier than the C6, but at the end of the day it would depend partly on how long you are going to keep the truck.

Actually 12 does not seem really bad for a 460. I have had many of them over the years, but all were 4 wheel drive, and usually averaged around 10 mpg with those.

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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-13-2012, 06:43 AM Thread Starter
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We talked about what will be needed for the swap and he seemed to think that the trans would fit in the tunnel of the '79. I'd have to do some work on the cross member and shorten the drive shaft. My truck has a two piece shaft so shortening the front section would be pretty easy. He told me that they had done a couple of these swaps into motor homes and it did well. I'd just build the transmission myself from a core. He said that the E40D should be pretty easy to find as a core too.

My truck is a two wheel drive and it gets reasonable economy as long as it's driven at a moderate speed to keep the engine rpm down.

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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-13-2012, 07:30 AM
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having switch to a overdrive trans i notice that around town mileage is about the same on the Eway it does pickup 3mpg

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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-13-2012, 10:37 AM
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As others state, you'll need the trans controller and wiring harness. I think Baumann Engineering sells the two for roughly $500-$550 total.

You'll need an early E4OD core to build with a gear-driven speedometer.


I'm not advocating buying one from them, new, but somethign along the lines of a Gear Vendors overdrive unit mounted on the back of that C6 may end up being an easier process. They don't provide as much overdrive gearing as does O/D in an E4OD (.71:1 for the E4OD, .78:1 for the Gear Vendors) and you wouldn't have the added efficiency of a torque converter clutch, but they are TOUGH units and fairly simple.

An E4OD is a HEAVY unit. ~300 lbs with converter.
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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-13-2012, 11:55 AM
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Most overdrives have steeper low gears which will in turn help stop and go mileage and of course the overdrive should help as long it does not pull the RPM's low enough to lug the engine. I would do the math and see where it will put you RPM wise on the highway. I would do it.

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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-13-2012, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Right now with the C6 my truck turns about 3000rpm when running down the highway at between 65 and 70mph. It's been a while since I've checked it but I think that's about right. It has a 33 inch tall tire and a 4.10 gear ratio. It's massively over geared for anything that I use it for and running down the highway it has an easy time pulling close to 20 inches of manifold vacuum. If I could drop it 1200rpm it would be great.

What's considered "early" for an E40D?

I have a customer with some Mopars with the Gear Vendors units and they work well. Having a lock up converter would be a real plus for mileage and transmission temperature. The controller and wiring doesn't sound very scary to me but how does it do it's modulation? Does the box have a vacuum port?

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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-13-2012, 08:35 PM
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The earlier the core the less amount of good stuff will be in it, but then again if its just a DD then it aint gotta be all that tough.

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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-13-2012, 10:42 PM
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Dave I wish your post would have said C6 v E4OD v ZF The ZF is the way to go. I did the E4OD conversion, yes it works but having done one & later going to a ZF I just wasted time and money getting to where I really wanted to be. I'm passing on all the E4OD stuff to another forum member. If you need any info on the conversion just PM me and I'll call you. I run a 340 gear and at least a 33 tire & I stuff the ZF in OD at 45
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 08:37 AM
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E40D

I made this swap in my Fox Mustang with 460 and am very pleased. The C6 and loose converter ran about 3500 rpm at 60 mph and the E40D with converter locked up turns about 2200 rpm.
Much more enjoyable at highway speeds. 460 cores are a lot harder to find. The output shaft from an early transmission will have the speedometer gear cut and come in 7 and 8 tooth versions. I used the insides from a later 4R100 in my core as it is a lot stronger.
If you need an output shaft let me know because I believe I still have some.
I bought my Baumann right on this site i the classifieds.
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 10:22 AM
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By early, I'm referring to an '89-'91 core. I, for sure, know those all utilized mechanically (geared) driven speedometers. I don't recall how far into the '90s they still utilized gear driven speedometers. My memory is telling me that '92 (when the trucks were given a facelift) is when they went to a speed-sensor driven speedometer. That may be flawed.


All of that said, I'm presuming given your earlier statement you're going to build one or have a knowledgeable individual build one. As somebody referenced after I said find an early core (for the gear-driven speedo), the downfall of the early units is there are quite a few weak links in them. I'd have your core built with late(r) model E4OD and 4R100 parts and updates. I'm speaking specifically about the updated/better center support, the 4R100 steel planetaries, updated/stronger sunshells and high capacity clutch packs. I'd have a Transgo Tugger shift kit installed in it when I rebuilt it as well as installing some Sonnax parts (the aluminum pump anti-drainback valve instead of just drilling the pump out to bypass the junk plastic valve Ford installs; and modulator valve modifications).

The Baumann box is pretty straightforward and simple. Their website has schematics of everything required. I don't believe there is a vacuum port on the box. You'd need to mount a throttle position sensor on your carb (or its linkage) to give the box a signal indicating how much skinny pedal you're feeding the rig - which will signal to the controller how much line pressure is needed and the shift point instead of a vacuum signal like on your C6. The cool thing is you can reprogram the line pressures and shift points to your liking - you can set it up, for example, so that if all the TPS/controller is "seeing" is say 25% throttle opening, it'll shift 1-2, 2-3, etc. just like a stock late model truck would as it rolled off the Ford assembly line (read: fairly subtle, smooth shifts). However, if the TPS/controller is seeing let's say 60%+ throttle opening, you can have it set up so that it boosts line pressure and makes the shifts much more firm and quicker. And all of that is adjustable...unlike sticking a shift kit in your old hydraulic C6 which, once the kit is installed it's a you-get-what-you-get shift pattern, firmness and quickness until/unless you get underneath the rig, pull the pan off, drop the VB, and install some different springs in the VB.

The lock-up converter will be your friend, for sure. Depending on how loose the converter in the rig is currently, you could probably knock a couple hundred rpm off of cruising speeds as-is with your C6 if such was available.





As somebody else referenced, if you don't mind going the hand-shaker route, you could probably do what you're wanting to accomplish for less money by going the ZF route (I'd try to find a 5S-47 model out of a later model truck...i.e. '96 or '97...the 5S-42s in the '87s-'95ish models are a weaker unit).



EDIT: don't let the TPS verbiage I spewed about scare you. It's a simple modification/addition to make. And an inexpensive TPS from something like a Fox 5.0 Mustang works perfectly fine and they are plentiful at parts stores and inexpensive. A friend of mine ran a 5.0 TPS on a carbed 306 small block in a Fox Mustang years ago while running a 4R70W/AODE in his Fox Mustang. He/his car actually was something of a test mule for Baumann as he lived right near where Baumann is located in upstate South Carolina in the Greenville area. This was in the mid to late '90s and he was competing in some Mustang drag racing series...running an 4R70W/AODE in a class that, at the time, was predominantly occupied by T-5 jammed cars.
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Last edited by Zac; 02-14-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 10:43 AM
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One thought not mentioned here is what I have done. Put the guts from an AODE or better yet a 4r70W. The E version has slightly lower gears and the 4r a bit lower. Over drive ratios are about the same biggest differance is 2st and 2nd. Now just a TV cable is needed (aftermarket Locar). If you want an electric OD lockout Lentech and several others make valve bodys with it for the AOD. Extra clutch discs and such can also be added.
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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2256b View Post
One thought not mentioned here is what I have done. Put the guts from an AODE or better yet a 4r70W. The E version has slightly lower gears and the 4r a bit lower. Over drive ratios are about the same biggest differance is 2st and 2nd. Now just a TV cable is needed (aftermarket Locar). If you want an electric OD lockout Lentech and several others make valve bodys with it for the AOD. Extra clutch discs and such can also be added.

An AOD-E has the same ratios as an AOD. 2.40:1 first gear. He'd have less (or taller) gearing in 1st than he would with the C6 currently in his truck (2.46:1). I'm presuming you're talking about him putting an AOD in his truck. ???

The AODE became the 4R70 (not to be confused with/considered one and the same as the 4R70W) due to Ford's across-the-board designation changes to its transmissions.

The 4R70W had the lower 1st and 2nd gears. 1st in those is like 2.8:1 which is marginally lower than the 2.71:1 first gear in an E4OD or 4R100.


It's an idea, yes...and if he isn't hauling stuff or pulling a heavy load frequently I'd say it's worth considering. An AOD or AOD-E/4R70/4R70W can be built to handle a good bit of power, but I wouldn't put one in a rig that's towing much weight with regularity. And the cost of the parts you're talking about (Lentech valvebody), and to mount one behind a 460 would be pretty high. I suppose one would have to do a cost comparison of all the options.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-14-2012, 02:37 PM
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4R70E 2.84 1.55 1.00 0.70
4R75E 2.84 1.55 1.00 0.70
4R70W 2.84 1.55 1.00 0.70
4R75W 2.84 1.55 1.00 0.70
AODE 2.84 1.55 1.00 0.70
AODEW 2.84 1.55 1.00 0.70
AXOD-E 2.77 1.54 1.00 0.69
AOD 2.40 1.47 1.00 0.67
AOD-E 2.40 1.47 1.00 0.67
A4LDE 2.47 1.47 1.00 0.75
A4LD 2.47 1.47 1.00 0.75
E4OD 2.71 1.54 1.00 0.71

Not shure if all these interchange but think they do. I run the 4r70W guts in my AOD with a Lentech stage II valve body. I also run a different pump,converter and tail shaft from other Ford transmissions that are not from an AOD.
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