Roll Cage Mandrell Bends?? - 460 Ford Forum
General Race Tech All other topics, such as Fuel Delivery, Ignition, Engine, Safety, Data Aquisition, Suspension, etc...

User Tag List

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
MrScharfenberger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Georgetown Indiana
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
 
Roll Cage Mandrell Bends??

I am going to install the roll cage bars that will go from the cage inside the car to the front motor plate in the engine bay this weekend. I am going to run the roll cage bars inside the front fenders and bring the bars back into the engine bay after the strut towers (this is going in a 1993 Mustang). I have a $100 dollar 12 ton tubing bender from Harbour Freight. I will have to put a few bends in the bars that came with my Jeggs roll cage kit. My question is this. The tubing bender that I have does not do mandrell bends. It does come with die's for the proper size tubes that puts the inside curve on the tubes. These will not be mandrell bends and I know it will flatten out the tubes a bit. Will this matter when I go to get the car certified? I don't think the car will be faster than 9.50's and I don't need the full 12 point cage. I just want the 12pt cage. Any insight that you guys have on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your experience and knowledge.

Send Questions To: [email protected]
MrScharfenberger is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:25 AM
Super Moderator
 
bigblok86ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Beloit , Wisconsin
Posts: 5,231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
      
Send a message via Yahoo to bigblok86ranger
Chris that bender won't work it will just kink the tubing (ask me how I know). I had an exhaust shop do some bends on mine but they can kink them too if they don't have them set right. Best bet would be to ask them if they can do it.

Eric Millard
[email protected]

528ci of N/A power

Circle R Racing Engines

Trick Chassis
Beloit,WI 53511
608-313-9197

http://www.trickchassis.com/

"LOL, WE DONT RACE DYNOS" Quoted for the truth!
bigblok86ranger is offline  
post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:33 AM
Senior Member
 
CarsByCarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO.
Posts: 5,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
 
Garage
What you have is a PIPE bender. Also known as the Harbor Freight tubing kinker. You need a proper TUBING bender that draws the tubing over a die. I have seen some people pack the inside of the tube with sand to keep it from kinking when using the HF kinker, but that was on 4x4 stuff not a cage that needs to be certified. The Kinker may be okay for some minor adjustments of 5 degrees or less, but that's about it.

As for mandrel bends.....no roll cage tubing should ever be bent on a mandrel bender as it will stretch the tubing making it thinner/weaker on the outside wall of the bend. Some compression/distortion/ovalizing (but not wrinkles on the inside radius) of the tubing is normal and expected on a properly bent tube and will never be questioned by any tech inspector that knows what he's doing.

If you plan buy a proper tubing bender, make sure it has either a steel/iron die or a guarantee of some sort. The one I bought last summer cracked two aluminum dies over the course of building my cage. The company ended up giving me a refund, but it would have been nice to just have a tool that worked as advertised.

You should also look into a tubing notcher of some sort if you haven't already. They make a night and day difference in the speed of fabrication as well as the quality of the joints.

.

Fastest street legal BBF on 460Ford.com
Fastest AFR headed BBF on 460Ford.com
Fastest street legal 2nd gen Montego GT on EARTH!

Last edited by CarsByCarl; 01-14-2012 at 11:01 AM.
CarsByCarl is offline  
 
post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
MrScharfenberger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Georgetown Indiana
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
 
Well heck...

I was hoping that this thing would do the trick. Good thing it is still brand new in the box. I'll take it back.

I'm really not sure how I'm going to get this done. Who ever did it would have to have the car there. It will be a process of bending a little and seeing how it fits. Then bending a little more. It is also going to need 2 bends in it of different angles on different planes.

Carl.. What kind of a bender do you have? Or what kind would you recommend and how much do they cost? I'd really like to do this all myself. Maybe I just won't put in the front 2 bars going to the motor plate but I hate the idea of not doing it.

Send Questions To: [email protected]
MrScharfenberger is offline  
post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
MrScharfenberger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Georgetown Indiana
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
 
I just had another thought. Do the tubes have to be bent? Or can they be cut and welded back together at the angles that I need? I think I already know the answer but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Send Questions To: [email protected]
MrScharfenberger is offline  
post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Senior Member
 
bowsher21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Chicago, IL
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
 
Garage
Greenly

Take a section of your tubing to a larger tool rental store and ask if they have a Greenly electrical pipe bender. If they do, ask them to test it on your pipe. I know they are strong enough to do it and do a smooth bend, just not sure of how much it will oval. And radius size might be big.

I own a power Hossfeld. Good tool check it out. www.hossfeldbender.com
I bought mine used for $600 with many dies.
bowsher21 is offline  
post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 02:33 PM
Super Moderator
 
bigblok86ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Beloit , Wisconsin
Posts: 5,231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
      
Send a message via Yahoo to bigblok86ranger
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/search-tubing-bender.html

check these out!

Eric Millard
[email protected]

528ci of N/A power

Circle R Racing Engines

Trick Chassis
Beloit,WI 53511
608-313-9197

http://www.trickchassis.com/

"LOL, WE DONT RACE DYNOS" Quoted for the truth!
bigblok86ranger is offline  
post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 04:34 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 955
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
 
Take a piece of brake line or fuel line around 3/8" in dia. Run it the route you want the bar to go to the front trying to keep it in the center of where you want to be.( Probably be safe to do both sides like this) Take your prebent brake tubing to a chassis shop and have them duplicate your brake line template and leave it a little long on both ends for some tweaking. It will save you loading the car up and taking it somewhere.

Travis
TravisRice is offline  
post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 05:07 PM
Senior Member
 
CarsByCarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO.
Posts: 5,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrScharfenberger View Post
Carl.. What kind of a bender do you have? Or what kind would you recommend and how much do they cost? I'd really like to do this all myself. Maybe I just won't put in the front 2 bars going to the motor plate but I hate the idea of not doing it.
I won't get into the brand of the one I had. There are a few manufacturer's that market similar designs with aluminum dies. What I will say is, don't waste your money on them. aluminum dies are junk. Buy the right tool the first time so you can have it in the future. Not many people are willing to pony up the money for a good bender, so it will pay for itself as word gets out that you have one.

The standard in my part of the world seems to be JD2 benders. http://www.jd2.com/

Fast change bending dies are CNC machined from solid steel billets and carry a lifetime guarantee against breakage. Steel dies eliminate the problems common with other manufacturers' aluminum dies, such as breakage and groove spreading when bending 4130 chromemoly tubing.

Plan to spend around $600 for the bender and die.

Fastest street legal BBF on 460Ford.com
Fastest AFR headed BBF on 460Ford.com
Fastest street legal 2nd gen Montego GT on EARTH!

Last edited by CarsByCarl; 01-14-2012 at 05:11 PM.
CarsByCarl is offline  
post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 06:15 AM
Senior Member
 
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
 
True "mandrel" benders are somewhat similar to "conventional" draw/pull through benders (like the JD2 stuff). They have a similar bending inner die/outer shoe design riding on the outside of the tubing. But they also have an inner mandrel fixture (think of a series of round metal spheres linked together) that is driven/pulled inside super thin wall tubing (like header J-bend kit tubing) on tight bends to help make the super thin tubing in the bend as "perfectly" round as possible.

If you already have a cheap HF pipe bender & some tubing on hand, you might as well try the sand in the tubing trick just for sihts & grins. Years ago one shop I rented had some dirt track guys in the next stall. The HF bender/sand deal was all they ever used on their stuff, sometimes it worked OK, & sometimes not so good. Usually if they used sand & it still collapsed the tubing it was because either they didn't pack the sand in good enough, or they were trying to bend the tubing at too great of an angle.

It should be noted that even a damn good manual/power "conventional" draw/pull through bender like the great JD2 stuff won't bend tubing 100% "perfect". There will always be some small/very minor amount of deforming of the tubing walls during bending (flattening on the outside of a bend & start/stop dimpling on the inside of a bend) with these die/shoe style benders. It might be hard to see sometimes, but it's always there. How noticeable the deforming is really depends on the tubing used (material, OD, and wall) the brand bender (some are just designed a little better than others) and how tight the bend is.

And they will also stretch the tubing wall a small given amount on the outside of a bend, the tighter the bend/greater the angle, the greater the possible stretch will be. Some bender brands are better on this aspect than others. With some brands the stretch is easy to see when the tubing bend is cut open, and some the stretch is so minor it's not really noticeable. The whole "wall stretch" thing on the outside of a bend is really a moot point anyway since now days tech inspectors for NHRA/IHRA/SFI certs aren't supposed to sonic test on the bends anyway, only the straight runs are supposed to be tested.

But even though the conventional benders aren't 100% "perfect", they are still 1000 times better than the cheaper HF style pipe benders.

I bought my JD2 bender somewhere around 1985-87 (IIRC) and it's still in damn good shape. The original 1 5/8" die/shoe it came with is a little worn, but still gets the job done.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.S. Dave::
460 street '66 Ranchero.......................finished someday.
460 race '70 Maverick..........................finished someday.
All 'glass Top Sportsman '69 Mustang......ummm, check back when I win big playing the Texas Lotto, or online poker.
My youtube page. Some ancient & newer local race video.

Join the Poker Players Alliance (theppa.org). US online poker should NOT be turned into a crime.
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.S. is offline  
post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 08:22 AM
Member
 
RStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: akron, ohio
Posts: 115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrScharfenberger View Post
Well heck...

I was hoping that this thing would do the trick. Good thing it is still brand new in the box. I'll take it back.

I'm really not sure how I'm going to get this done. Who ever did it would have to have the car there. It will be a process of bending a little and seeing how it fits. Then bending a little more. It is also going to need 2 bends in it of different angles on different planes.

Carl.. What kind of a bender do you have? Or what kind would you recommend and how much do they cost? I'd really like to do this all myself. Maybe I just won't put in the front 2 bars going to the motor plate but I hate the idea of not doing it.
I use a bender made by ProTools with air over hydraulic, nice bends . A neighbor brought over a piece of tube that he tried to bend with a HF bender and it just kinked it real bad. We used my bender to bend the same tube that was .125 wall, bent easy and turned out real nice.

getting ready to make 2nd pass over chinese airport, watch the news
RStevens is offline  
post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
MrScharfenberger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Georgetown Indiana
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
 
Well I think I will just see if I can rent one somewhere. I won't hold my breath though. I'm betting that I cannot find one. I'm thinking I'll probably end up doing what was suggested above. And that is make some kind of template that I can take to the local hot rod shop and have them form the pieces for me. A $600 dollar bender just isn't in the budget right now. Especially since I still need many other parts and I don't see needing a bender in the near future any time soon. And I really want to get a fire extinguisher system from Cale that is the same price. ...fire sucks.

Thanks for all the input guys. I reallydo appreciate it.

Send Questions To: [email protected]
MrScharfenberger is offline  
post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
MrScharfenberger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Georgetown Indiana
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
 
OK.. I did have another thought last night and I can't resist running it by everybody.

The sand trick seems OK. But there is still going to be space in between the tiny pieces of sand. Here was my idea...

The tubes I'm trying to bend has extra length. What about sealing up one end with a small plate and welder. Then on the other end thread the inside of the tube about an inch down into the tube. Then fill the tube with hydraulic oil and install a pipe plug in the threaded end and drive the plug in as far as it will go to compress any air that may be in there.

...then use the cheap Harbor Freight pipe bender upside down so any air that remains in the tube will run up toward the ends that aren't being bent and the bend will be pressed down towards the floor. Think it will work?

Send Questions To: [email protected]
MrScharfenberger is offline  
post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 11:19 AM
Senior Member
 
mudbogtom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
 
Send a message via Yahoo to mudbogtom
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrScharfenberger View Post
OK.. I did have another thought last night and I can't resist running it by everybody.

The sand trick seems OK. But there is still going to be space in between the tiny pieces of sand. Here was my idea...

The tubes I'm trying to bend has extra length. What about sealing up one end with a small plate and welder. Then on the other end thread the inside of the tube about an inch down into the tube. Then fill the tube with hydraulic oil and install a pipe plug in the threaded end and drive the plug in as far as it will go to compress any air that may be in there.

...then use the cheap Harbor Freight pipe bender upside down so any air that remains in the tube will run up toward the ends that aren't being bent and the bend will be pressed down towards the floor. Think it will work?
It might, and it might not. If you don't waste any money scrapping the tubing, return the pipe bender for a refund, all your money can be put towards doing it right. Even if you bend it to a point you think it looks good, it may not pass tech? Just a thought.

As mentioned already, you have a pipe bender. As small as the differences are, they just don't fit the actual tubing diameter to make it work right. You might be able to rough bend some stuff to shape, take those pieces to a 4wd or race shop and have them match the bends for you?
Tom

Soon to be powered by...
www.carsbycarl.com
mudbogtom is offline  
post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 01:16 PM
Member
 
krainium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
 
Use PVC pipe and a cheap heat gun from harbor freight to make a mock up piece.
krainium is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the 460 Ford Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome