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P-51 523 dyno sheets and pics of motor

25K views 53 replies 28 participants last post by  windsor 
#1 ·
523 c.i. =
4.300 stroke x 4.400 bore - 6.800 rod
p-51 heads out of box untouched 75 cc chambers
pistons= diamond 25cc dish
1.345 c.h.
10.5 to 1
motorsport m429 single plane intake
carb-pro systems 1050 dominator
cam=comp solid roller grind FF 4600R-1477R-R110
gross lift 702/702
dur.@ .020 280/288
dur.@ .050 248/256
lobe sep 110
installed intake C.L. 110
valve timing@ .050 int: 14 btdc 54 abdc
ext: 58 bbdc 18 atdc
2" into 3 1/2" Long tube tubular automotive headers
 
#13 ·
Brad Johnson said:
DD is predicting 623 HP @5500 and 635 lb-ft @4500.
Brad
rmcomprandy said:
It's not a pleasure to say this but, if that combination made ONLY 630 horsepower, it wouldn't have been good.
Northwest outlaw said:
i seen 701.1 if my eyes are right
I think this is what Randy was referring too.....

Impressive numbers...great job. :D :D

mike
 
#15 ·
motor

Thanks but the ones who deserve the credit are Jon Kaase for the awesome heads and his guy Roger who I dealt with for the comp cam and other parts and Gene Pearson and Darrin Gould at Performance Concepts for the machining and assembly, and this board and its members, especially Carl from carsbycarl for the pistons. All I contributed was my overtime savings and a bunch of dumb questions! :D
 
#16 ·
jbozzelle

That thing should make closer to 750. Kaase made 700 with those heads on a 466 crate shortblock. He made around 750 on a FRPP 514 (521 actually) shortblock.
Even though those dyno numbers are impressive,I to would think that they would be closer to 750 horsepower.In fact I am hopeing that you had a soft tune-up and that the numbers would go up later on.
The reason why I am hopeing,other than the fact that it is a ford and I love the BIG BLOCK FORD,is that CAR CRAFT had done an article in the MARCH '07 issue with an 496ci stroker BBC and made a claimed 707 horsepower at 6400rpm and 603 torque at 5200rpm.
The motor was built around AFR 305cc heads(which do not even compare to KAASE P-51's to me),a COMP CAMS XTREME 292 cam and a DEMON 850cfm carb with 1 inch spacer.

Here is the link if you have time to read.
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0703_big_block_chevy_engine_build/index.html
 
#17 ·
Brad Johnson said:
DD is predicting 623 HP @5500 and 635 lb-ft @4500.

The flow numbers I used are for P-51 heads with basic mild cleanup.

Brad

Desk top Dyno is just a play toy I have not seen any where on any engine combo where it was any where close to right, so I would trust it for S**T just use it as a game and be glad they only got a little of your money for buying it... :roll:



Oh by the way good numbers on the engine..


Randy
 
#19 ·
cougar1969 said:
Desk top Dyno is just a play toy I have not seen any where on any engine combo where it was any where close to right, so I would trust it for S**T just use it as a game and be glad they only got a little of your money for buying it... :roll:
Then you aren't using it right. The predictions are only as good as A) the quality of data and B) the care taken in running the sim (i.e. make sure everything is loaded properly and the right settings are selected). If you haven't had any luch with DD then maybe you should let someone else run the sims.

If I have actual flow numbers from the heads (hint: I didn't in the above sim), and presuming all the other info provided is accurate, I can usually get within 3-5% of the final build. At the very least it is an excellent tool for no-cost "what if's" before you start buying a bunch of expensive parts.

There's no need to hop on the soapbox every time someone mentions DD. We all know you loath it. Foaming at the mouth about it every time it comes up helps no one, especially considering that a lot of people can make it work.

Brad
 
#21 ·
I, too have been very pleased with desk top dyno. I use it for the convenience of it overall, and the fact that it includes all the cam math and CR math is nice. You are right, though, you have to put it the flow figures and sometimes allow for the heads' other qualityies- burn, etc.
I find it reflects the changes in cam duration and lobe separation really well- that alone it worth the price.
Only think I don't like is the "Manifold type" filters- I always get the most realistic curves with the single plane choice, and even that over estimates the first several hundred RPM in about 40% of cases. The dual plane and TPI inflate the low end just stupidly.
 
#22 ·
Brad Johnson said:
cougar1969 said:
Desk top Dyno is just a play toy I have not seen any where on any engine combo where it was any where close to right, so I would trust it for S**T just use it as a game and be glad they only got a little of your money for buying it... :roll:
Then you aren't using it right. The predictions are only as good as A) the quality of data and B) the care taken in running the sim (i.e. make sure everything is loaded properly and the right settings are selected). If you haven't had any luch with DD then maybe you should let someone else run the sims.

If I have actual flow numbers from the heads (hint: I didn't in the above sim), and presuming all the other info provided is accurate, I can usually get within 3-5% of the final build. At the very least it is an excellent tool for no-cost "what if's" before you start buying a bunch of expensive parts.

There's no need to hop on the soapbox every time someone mentions DD. We all know you loath it. Foaming at the mouth about it every time it comes up helps no one, especially considering that a lot of people can make it work.

Brad
DD is not a perticulary good or accurate program from my experiance, It is rather generic, but is fun to play with, their are a few other programs out their that do provide a little better prediction.
 
#23 ·
cougar1969 said:
Brad Johnson said:
DD is predicting 623 HP @5500 and 635 lb-ft @4500.

The flow numbers I used are for P-51 heads with basic mild cleanup.

Brad

Desk top Dyno is just a play toy I have not seen any where on any engine combo where it was any where close to right, so I would trust it for S**T just use it as a game and be glad they only got a little of your money for buying it... :roll:



Oh by the way good numbers on the engine..


Randy
FWIW which version makes a huge difference. The first versions were generic. Dyno 2000 a bit better . Desktop Dyno Pro Sim is alot more $$ than the older two. The latest update is pretty accurate provided you input it correctly. I've matched several known actual builds within a few hp(conservative). I also have used Pro Trends EA(upgraded last fall and rarely use it) and obtained similar results. It is less user friendly. It is a better tool for designing actual components like intake and headers than DD pro sim. If you dont read or understand what the help files suggest your sim could come up with some pretty bogus numbers.

My 2 cents
 
#24 ·
jbozzelle said:
That thing should make closer to 750. Kaase made 700 with those heads on a 466 crate shortblock. He made around 750 on a FRPP 514 (521 actually) shortblock.
That 466 crate was seriously higher compression and IIRC the cam was bigger too.(over .750 net lift)

Again IIRC The 514 (521 crate) also utilized a different cam than BBFCJ has.

BBFCJ your numbers are nothing to sneeze at and in line with the sum of your parts. Under 700 NET lift, no mention of Zero deck, Port matching? Ported intake? Headers that are closer to 1.875 ID!(IMO thats worth a bit of difference on the top end power numbers) I saw a note of only 28 degrees timing on one of the dyno sheets yet Cliff suggested 30 for my 13:1 combo as a starting point. (and some other tests of this head also showed additional timing advance.) Cant say its a poor combo at all. And the numbers ARE good.

Anyone thinking they can just bolt some parts on and beat Jon Kaase needs to wake up.
 
#25 ·
Bruce Wilkie said:
FWIW which version makes a huge difference. The first versions were generic. Dyno 2000 a bit better . Desktop Dyno Pro Sim is alot more $$ than the older two. The latest update is pretty accurate provided you input it correctly. I've matched several known actual builds within a few hp(conservative). I also have used Pro Trends EA(upgraded last fall and rarely use it) and obtained similar results. It is less user friendly. It is a better tool for designing actual components like intake and headers than DD pro sim. If you dont read or understand what the help files suggest your sim could come up with some pretty bogus numbers.

My 2 cents
Bruce, don't waste your breath. Some folks are convinced that DD "is the devil" and don't care to be educated otherwise, proven sim/build correlations or not. I, like you, have had good luck with it. Some people haven't, but that can most always be attributed to feeding it faulty data.

Brad
 
#26 ·
I'm a little confused.Kaase claimed 700 hp with a stock frpp 514 with the super cobrajet heads.And we all know the p51s out flow those heads.Don't get me wrong those are really good # nice motor! I'm just questioning the 514 numbers Jon use to show on his web site. [ the secret behind fords new super cobrajet heads]
 
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