460 Ford Forum - Reply to Topic
Engine Tech A place to discuss all 385-series engine tech and theory.

Thread: '96 F 350 460 starts then dies instantly Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the 460 Ford Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
04-12-2019 10:43 AM
causticuc Thinking on it, may also just have a poor grounding point somewhere in that area.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk
04-12-2019 10:40 AM
mpaton Sorry to hear that. Those codes do not distinguish between an open circuit and a short circuit, so you could have either. The transistor output driver registers that something is wrong and tells the PCM, which sets the code.

Did I gather that you'd found the pins on the PCM for the heater circuits> So hopefully bu now you've identified the problem, and are well on the way to fixing it.
04-10-2019 05:40 PM
causticuc That sucks.

Basics are always wiring, maybe a wire got too hot, time for a continuity test of the harness.

You should see if you can find a friend with a quarterhorse to see what is going on.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk
03-18-2019 09:35 AM
buddysharp Well, the problems continue. The truck is showing a p0155 and p0135 shorted 02 heated sensor upstream; essentially that there is a short or flaw in the O2 sensor heating system. PCM is replaced and O2 sensors are new. Wondering if I have a bad PCM or a dead short? Strange that the short would show up AFTER the PCM was replaced, which would lead me to PCM. Truck never had these codes before. Any guidance appreciated.
03-13-2019 06:52 PM
buddysharp Many thanks to mpaton, subford, and the Mad Porter as well as others for your help. DTC's are cleared and truck is running normal; mostly within specifications. Baro herts are still a little off but greatly improved.

Summary: Died while driving. Started and dies immediately. Random unplugging of MAF allowed truck to start and run. No apparent connection to issue. Changed fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, throttle position sensor, ignition tumbler and switch (in steering column), replaced both upstream O2 sensors, and finally replaced PCM. OBDII did not indicate issues and no codes other than lean on Bank 2 when running with MAF unplugged. Smartphone scan tools and handheld code scanner were pretty much useless. SnapOn scanner showed that Baro was off by over 5000ft and PCM would not accept flash - that was the indication that PCM was fried.

If I had taken it to a mechanic or gained access to a more robust scanner, I would have saved a few hundred dollars and hours and hours of trying to decipher the issue. But it was fun. And both Subford and Mpaton were able to point at the PCM early on. Thankful for their guidance.

I will now keep a PCM on the bench as a backup - they are hard to come by and can be time consuming and a little expensive.

Side note to the above: I ordered my remanufactured PCM from Flagship One based on 3-6 business day turnaround promise for $154. After four days I called, noting I hadn't gotten a shipping notice, and was told the first unit had failed testing. Every subsequent phone call was vague at best. I finally called and spoke to a supervisor who agreed to expedite shipping at their cost but this was 2 weeks and 3 days before I received the unit. The unit had a broken plastic housing, making it non-watertight at the plug, as well as it had been grinded, literally grinded, I assume to get rust off. I've asked for a refund but no reply. YMMV.
03-13-2019 04:04 PM
buddysharp Tested truck again today. Today I got P0155 and P0135 noting that heater circuit for upstream O2 sensors was malfunctioning and likely shorted.
Removed the PCM harness and PCM and inspected pins and harness. No obvious signs of damage or shorting.
Pulled and tested both upstream O2 sensors with ohm meter for heating circuit - both are nominal.
Removed, wire wheeled and reinstalled PCM ground wire on inner fender.
Opened up upstream wiring harness where both sensors merge into one loom but no obvious broken wires.
Tested engine side of both O2 sensor plugs for voltage with key on and have no voltage to sensors. Not sure if they should have voltage or not with key on and engine off. I did not start engine with both sensors unplugged.
Replaced original upstream O2 sensor on passenger side after testing original and aftermarket "NTK". Ohms were about 20% higher for the new unit so I changed it - no particular reason other than it's 20+ years old.
Re-checked all connectors and ensured wiring for passenger side O2 sensor was not snagged or stretched - given that it runs over the top of the transmission.

Started engine and tested using ForScan on my android phone and bluetooth OBDII scanner after clearing codes. No codes except P1000.

It might be fixed.

Heading for a long test ride. Will report back.
03-12-2019 08:02 PM
buddysharp
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaton View Post
Your cross reference didn't make it into the post. Ford used to publish a lot of useful information on the Motorcraft.com website, for free if you looked under VECI labels. Now that's all for money and I don't have a subscription.

We never discussed what transmission you have, obviously automatic because we talked about power braking it. it's my belief that the AKC variant would need the hardware code ML1-442 and would be for a nonelectronic automatic transmission like a C6. I've been assuming you have an E4OD.
ECM arrived today from after nearly two weeks - more on that another time. As predicted, there's more going on here.

Disconnected battery, installed and reconnected MAF. Truck fired up and ran smoothly. Took it out for several WOT's and then a ride around town. Plugged in the OBDII scanner after a quick stop and got P0155-CHOSSHTR21 Heater Circuit Malfunction. Indicated Heated Exhaust Sensor Left Upstream open or grounded circuit - maybe shorted to VPWR.

Also had P1000 On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) Systems Readiness Test Not Complete after having cleared the codes once, which I think is normal.

I had my fingers crossed that I was done, but.....
03-12-2019 10:28 AM
buddysharp
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorD View Post
Be sure to check the ECC relay next to the fuel pump relay on the drivers inner wheel well. Corrosion is common. Do you have a check engine light with KOEO?
Hi DoctorD, deleted my prior reply - tired and confused. Thanks. I tested the relays with volt meter and all were good. Ignition Control module on driver's side inner fender is pretty corroded and that's what I was looking at if new ECM doesn't solve this.

I've been unable to execute KOEO and other tests. I get a P1000 failure.

I'd really like to understand what systems the engine checks after start so I can better understand why it will start\run with MAF unplugged and start\die with MAF plugged.
03-11-2019 12:23 PM
DoctorD Be sure to check the ECC relay next to the fuel pump relay on the drivers inner wheel well. Corrosion is common. Do you have a check engine light with KOEO?
03-11-2019 10:51 AM
buddysharp
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaton View Post
I wouldn't count on finding much on the outside of any reman. They seem to cover it all up with their own labels, which say little. Of course it's perfectly possible for them to take any old ML-441 and flash in the correct calibration.

The code in the software should be F6TFAMD so perhaps your guy with the specialist scanner can find that inside.
You, as I've seen from your other posts, are absolutely correct!
The factory calibration code is 6-98Q-R10.
The transmission is an E40D.
The correct model of ECM is a ML1-441
The software code is indeed F6TF-AMD
03-11-2019 10:44 AM
buddysharp Trans Code on the door sticker is "E' so I'm assuming that is an E40D. It appears the C6 was also available that year for my truck, but I'm hoping that "E" means "E40D"?
03-11-2019 10:33 AM
buddysharp
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaton View Post
Your cross reference didn't make it into the post. Ford used to publish a lot of useful information on the Motorcraft.com website, for free if you looked under VECI labels. Now that's all for money and I don't have a subscription.

We never discussed what transmission you have, obviously automatic because we talked about power braking it. it's my belief that the AKC variant would need the hardware code ML1-442 and would be for a nonelectronic automatic transmission like a C6. I've been assuming you have an E4OD.
Good question. I don't know if it's a C6 or an E40D and just spent a half hour trying to find a reference to identify it. Any resources you can point me to would be appreciated.

I tried to included the table again, below.
03-11-2019 10:01 AM
mpaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddysharp View Post
Waiting for the new one to arrive. I went by the Ford parts counter and they looked up the engineering code for my truck. He found the orignal was F6TZ-12A650-AKC and that was superseded by F6TF-12A650-AKC. Do you think that F6TFAMD superseded the F6TFAKC? I found the below listing of all versions or 1996 and the AKC variant is pretty clearly not a California coding. This was a pretty knowledgeable parts guy so I was pretty surprised when I got home and found this cross reference.
Your cross reference didn't make it into the post. Ford used to publish a lot of useful information on the Motorcraft.com website, for free if you looked under VECI labels. Now that's all for money and I don't have a subscription.

We never discussed what transmission you have, obviously automatic because we talked about power braking it. it's my belief that the AKC variant would need the hardware code ML1-442 and would be for a nonelectronic automatic transmission like a C6. I've been assuming you have an E4OD.
03-11-2019 01:46 AM
buddysharp
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaton View Post
I wouldn't count on finding much on the outside of any reman. They seem to cover it all up with their own labels, which say little. Of course it's perfectly possible for them to take any old ML-441 and flash in the correct calibration.

The code in the software should be F6TFAMD so perhaps your guy with the specialist scanner can find that inside.
Waiting for the new one to arrive. I went by the Ford parts counter and they looked up the engineering code for my truck. He found the orignal was F6TZ-12A650-AKC and that was superseded by F6TF-12A650-AKC. Do you think that F6TFAMD superseded the F6TFAKC? I found the below listing of all versions or 1996 and the AKC variant is pretty clearly not a California coding. This was a pretty knowledgeable parts guy so I was pretty surprised when I got home and found this cross reference.

I plan to have it back on the scanner this week and will research what is in there today. Pretty clear to me that the F6TFAMD is at least one correct version of the California calibration for my truck.
03-10-2019 04:13 PM
mpaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddysharp View Post
If I recall, you indicated that the FEZ2 would be imprinted in big letters on the PCM? If so, when I get the new one and pull the existing out, I'll check and post to confirm.
I wouldn't count on finding much on the outside of any reman. They seem to cover it all up with their own labels, which say little. Of course it's perfectly possible for them to take any old ML-441 and flash in the correct calibration.

The code in the software should be F6TFAMD so perhaps your guy with the specialist scanner can find that inside.
This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome