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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Everyone! -
:smile:The quick question: What type of automatic overdrive transmission can I install in a 71 mustang with a 429 engine?
:grin:The details: It's a 71 convertible. I'm replacing the original 6 cylinder / C4 tranny / 8" 28 spline rear with ------> 429 SCJ (dyno shows 572 HP at 5000 rpm and 617 Ft-lbs at 4600 rpm) / 9" 31 spline rear with N-case, Trac-Lok, with any choice of gear ratio, and the choice of transmission still up in the air.
:surprise:The quandary: No luck by looking at previous threads. I have all the "stuff" to make the switch, but haven't decided yet on a transmission. I have several spare C6 trannies that came with the Cobra Jet engines (R servo and iron tail housing) and can rebuild and install one of these. But I would rather go with an Automatic Overdrive because, like everyone else in the world, I like both good acceleration and high speeds, and I'm not keen on a manual OD tranny because I like to drink my coffee while I'm driving. Articles on this subject usually involve trucks and not passenger cars. Some authors suggest the original Ford AOD or the Ford E4OD, with the latter more often recommended because it's a beefier transmission. Other articles say the E4OD is too big to fit in a passenger car. I would rather not go with an overdrive kit for a C6 for various reasons.
:confused: What's a Ford Lover to do?
 

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Hi Everyone! -
:smile:The quick question: What type of automatic overdrive transmission can I install in a 71 mustang with a 429 engine?
:grin:The details: It's a 71 convertible. I'm replacing the original 6 cylinder / C4 tranny / 8" 28 spline rear with ------> 429 SCJ (dyno shows 572 HP at 5000 rpm and 617 Ft-lbs at 4600 rpm) / 9" 31 spline rear with N-case, Trac-Lok, with any choice of gear ratio, and the choice of transmission still up in the air.
:surprise:The quandary: No luck by looking at previous threads. I have all the "stuff" to make the switch, but haven't decided yet on a transmission. I have several spare C6 trannies that came with the Cobra Jet engines (R servo and iron tail housing) and can rebuild and install one of these. But I would rather go with an Automatic Overdrive because, like everyone else in the world, I like both good acceleration and high speeds, and I'm not keen on a manual OD tranny because I like to drink my coffee while I'm driving. Articles on this subject usually involve trucks and not passenger cars. Some authors suggest the original Ford AOD or the Ford E4OD, with the latter more often recommended because it's a beefier transmission. Other articles say the E4OD is too big to fit in a passenger car. I would rather not go with an overdrive kit for a C6 for various reasons.
:confused: What's a Ford Lover to do?


With all due respect.

572 HP at 5000 rpm and 617 Ft-lbs at 4600 rpm with 429 inches and scj heads???



SJ
used 2b RHP


:D
 

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Discussion Starter #3
This particular engine was designed top to bottom, and parts provided by my friend Lem Evans. I told him I wanted an engine that had "good power" but very smooth - that I could sit a glass of wine on top of the breather and not spill a drop. Seriously.
 

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If you are the very same Scotty Johnson (the Mad Porter) up in Portland Oregon and vicinity, you actually built my distributor. It was a long time ago. I wanted a distributor that looks stock from the outside. Wanted the engine to look stock as well. Forgot to mention its been bored and stroked to 547.
 

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Ford made 2 overdrive trans that came behind the 385 series engines, the E4OD and 4R100. They are both based on the C6 design, but need a stand-alone electronic controller, which are available. Some people have found cheap alternatives to parts of the electronics.
A rebuild E4OD, decent converter and controller is around 2x-3x the cost of a C6 to handle the same power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C6_transmission
 

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If you are the very same Scotty Johnson (the Mad Porter) up in Portland Oregon and vicinity, you actually built my distributor. It was a long time ago. I wanted a distributor that looks stock from the outside. Wanted the engine to look stock as well. Forgot to mention its been bored and stroked to 547.

I am and we are in Tacoma / Seattle area.

That makes sense. Stroker combo. We do a very similar deal with AFR heads. 570 hp and 653 Tq. Smooth as glass at idle. Runs on regular fuel.

There are several companies that offer an AODE with a BB bell. You will still need a controller. The E4OD transmission is monstrous and will not fit in the stang with out fire wall mods.

A proper C6 with a gear vendors would be cost effective and allow gear splitting.



SJ
used 2b RHP



:D
 

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Just my 2 cents worth. With that kind of power you could go with a mild gear like 3.25:1, or 3.50:1 and still use the C-6. Very drive-able, yet still accelerate like a rocket with the abundant torque that big stroker motor makes.
Bullet-proof C-6 would fill the bill in my humble opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Wow! I'm really impressed with these options and suggestions.

And Scotty, I apologize - for some reason I though you were up in Portland but when you live in Kentucky anything west of the Mississippi is the West Coast. You took a stock Ford points type distributor and made it into an electronic ignition. Works great and it looks stock. So basically I wanted everything on this engine to look stock from the outside.

Lem Evans designed my engine for me, and he provided me with all the parts (except for the block and some other external parts). He was actually a little embarrassed because it only produced 572 HP, while he's used to getting more like 750 or 800 HP. But I wanted a smooth running engine that sounded stock. We put a full glass of good ole Kentucky Bourbon on the shaker while it was running and never spilled a drop. We did this about 5 or 7 years ago but I dropped out of the muscle car interest due to the unexpected death of my 23 yo son, which you can imagine will put a sudden stop to any plans. So now I'm ready to put my toe in the water again. Anyway, I have 4 other DOVE-A blocks and a bunch of heads, intakes, etc. Have a bunch of nodular rears with 31 splines as well.

This first application is the 429 in the 71 convertible. Per the reply from Mark G, I've studied the Overdrive mechanism from Gear Vendors and it seems to be incredibly durable and well though out. I would rather go with a dedicated AOD by Ford or keep my original C6 though. I don't think I like the idea of pushing buttons to make it shift through the split gears. And as per r72cnvt who suggested a 3:25 or 3:50 with a C6, I've done a lot of hand calculations and come up with 3:18 as the optimal gear ratio if I keep the C6 with this engine HP and Torque.

And thanks rattle_snake and jpierce55 for your inputs as well. Basically I think the option of the E4OD is out (too big) and the AOD is out (not durable enough). I don't like the Gear Vendors option b/c I have to put a ton of money into my C6 as it hasn't seen any action for 30 years, and then I would have to spend another $3K at Gear Vendors for their device. So, I'm thinking about the JW Performance Ultra Bell bell housing with a performance built 4R70W or something similar. Or just keep my C6 with a 3.18 or 3.00 rear end. This engine has a large amount of torque and a very flat torque curve from about 2500 to 4800 rpm, so a you say, will easily handle the conservative gear ratio.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, I'll keep you posted. Sorry for the long PhD dissertation. My next build will definitely not be stock, and I will send my heads up to the Mad Porter, somewhere out in California, or wherever the hell it is, Washington DC? Portland Maine? to get the works.>:)
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Here's a link to my HP torque curve. Tried to attach it as a file but it won't allow due to file size. If you are able to see the HP - T curve, it looks a little jagged because back when it was dyno'ed the output was only a series of numbers so I converted them to Excel to make a visual curve.

 

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I have an AOD built by L&M transmission in San Mateo. I had it behind my 501 (385 series) but I switched to a Tremec 6 speed for more fun. Asking $2k for everything to hook up and drive, along with 2800 stall converter. I can also install since I have a car lift.
 

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Hi Everyone! -
<img src="http://460ford.com/forum/images/460ford_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile.png" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />The quick question: What type of automatic overdrive transmission can I install in a 71 mustang with a 429 engine?
<img src="http://460ford.com/forum/images/460ford_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />The details: It's a 71 convertible. I'm replacing the original 6 cylinder / C4 tranny / 8" 28 spline rear with ------> 429 SCJ (dyno shows 572 HP at 5000 rpm and 617 Ft-lbs at 4600 rpm) / 9" 31 spline rear with N-case, Trac-Lok, with any choice of gear ratio, and the choice of transmission still up in the air.
<img src="http://460ford.com/forum/images/460ford_2015/smilies/tango_face_surprise.png" border="0" alt="" title="EEK! Surprise!" class="inlineimg" />The quandary: No luck by looking at previous threads. I have all the "stuff" to make the switch, but haven't decided yet on a transmission. I have several spare C6 trannies that came with the Cobra Jet engines (R servo and iron tail housing) and can rebuild and install one of these. But I would rather go with an Automatic Overdrive because, like everyone else in the world, I like both good acceleration and high speeds, and I'm not keen on a manual OD tranny because I like to drink my coffee while I'm driving. Articles on this subject usually involve trucks and not passenger cars. Some authors suggest the original Ford AOD or the Ford E4OD, with the latter more often recommended because it's a beefier transmission. Other articles say the E4OD is too big to fit in a passenger car. I would rather not go with an overdrive kit for a C6 for various reasons.
<img src="http://460ford.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Confused" class="inlineimg" /> What's a Ford Lover to do?
Please keep us posted on this... I'm having the same issue except mine is a 71 Mach one.... I'd love to know what tranny you decide to go with
 

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I am running a 557 cid 385 motor probably around 600 hp in a 72 Mustang with a C-6 and the Gear Vendor overdrive. It drives like a 4 speed. I would definitely recommend that combination. I would also recommend a high capacity bigger than you think you need transmission fluid cooler especially if you have a high stall torque converter. Also if the car pulls hard at low speeds you will probably need a deep sump transmission oil pan. My transmission would cavitate with the stock pan when in first gear. I went with a 4” deep Summit Racing pan and extended pickup which took care the cavitation problem.

I have about 42,000 miles on the motor and C-6 transmission and about 30,000 miles on the first Gear Vendor. My transmission started leaking so I had a local transmission shop fix it. After I got the car back the overdrive started slipping. I am sure something happened to it while it was in the shop. I suspect they took the Gear Vendor apart to see how it worked. Gear Vendor will send out a rebuilt unit the day you call for about $1,700 plus core charge. You put your core in the box the rebuilt one came in and send back for the core refund.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
460MustangCoupe - That's some good information to have. I had not thought of the extra cooling, but Eric S of the JW Ultra Bell company told me yesterday I would need a cooler in the 15000 Gross Vehicle Weight range, or even a little bigger. Also I didn't think about the deeper transmission pan. Good Deal, Thanks :nerd:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
More info pairing a 460 with automatic overdrive

I just received some new information on the JW Ultra Bell method of pairing up a 429/460 Block with an Automatic Overdrive Transmission. This was in the e-mail from Eric Secaur at J.W. Performance Transmission, and repeated here with his permission. I asked him what types of Ford AOD's will work with his Ultra Bell. (I'm not promoting this product at all, just passing on information that took me a few days of work to obtain):

Hello,

We [J.W. Performance Transmission] offer 5 bellhousings that will mount to the 385 series BBF (429-460)

92454 – GM Powerglide
92454-A – GM TH400 or TH350
92461 – Ford C4 (uses the pump bolts, will work for either case or pan fill transmissions)
92454-AOD – The original true AOD only (non electronic), will not work with an AODE, some have modified it in the
past to work with an AODE or 4R70W, exactly what modifications are required I do not know.
92454-700 – GM 700R4 – special order only 3-4 week rough lead time

It should also be noted that with our 92454-AOD bellhousing you must have the converter length extended by approximately 0.400” over OEM. So an out of the box “factory” type converter will not work.

As with all of our bellhousings you must use a 10” or smaller diameter torque converter to ensure correct fitment within the internal confines of our bellhousings. Our bellhousings are thicker than OEM (safety shields), and we make them thicker in towards the torque converter so they can still fit under OEM floorboards. This may pose an issue for you as many 10” converters start at about 3000 stall rpm.

Typically the smaller (in size) torque converter you use the higher the stall, when the stall increases so does your chances of building heat, an ample size cooler would be a very good idea. (Think 15000 GVW +)

Unfortunately we do not build AOD transmissions here, but I can build you the torque converters if you desire.

Just a few things to consider before you take the $$$ plunge.

Eric Secaur, JW Performance
 

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Your optimum gear stated as 3.18 with a C6 I assume that uses the standard 2.4 1.4 1.0 C6 planets. If you use the planets from the E4OD in your C6 (they are drop in interchangeable) which will be 2.71 1.54 1.0 then you can lower the differential number to maintain the 3.18
Doing the math that gear becomes 2.82 but the lowest common aftermarket ratio is 3.00

If you go this route it is the lowest cost and simplest way to go. Even with a 3.25 gear this engine will be loafing on the highway at 70mph using 28" tall tires. Many others have done this. I will be doing this on my Torino resto-mod build.

Also I assume that the converter stall will be at 2100 to 2300. This will keep the heat generation down where a simple plate style heat exchanger with a fan will keep it cool.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks Dave D! Wow, this is like taking a university crash course for me in Ford transmissions. I didn't know the planetary gears from an E4OD would be a direct fit in the C6, but it makes sense. And yes I was saying the 3.18 is optimum for the stock C6 gear ratios. It would be nice to switch to a 3.00 or even a 2.75 rear end. So I would definitely consider using the E4OD planets.

I have a question though. If I were to go this route, should I buy a new set or could I use a set from a used E40D? In general, would a used set be reliable or too risky? I can buy a used E4OD for around $200 but no idea of the insides until I buy it and disassemble it.
 

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Those E4OD planets are fairly strong with more gears than C6 planets but why buy used when new is less than $300.
https://www.ctpowertrain.com/c6-6-pinion-steel-front-planet-low-ratio-upgrade-kit-fits-e4od-4r100/
There can be some fitment issues but Broader Performance has a "plug and play" kit with a needle thrust bearing. It is $420
https://www.broaderperformance.com/ford-c6-/90-wide-ratio-gear-kit-with-needle-bearing-kit.html

I buy as much as I can from Jay at Broader Performance. He is good people (strange way to say that). His valve bodies are awesome and built very well.
 
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