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Discussion Starter #1
this is probably in the wrong place, but today at my parts store my coworker who likes hondas showed me an article in a magazine (honda tuning or some such crap) with an 800 hp honda engine... so i told him naturally, yeah with about 50 grand in cash you could have one of those, and theres no replacement for displacement :twisted: of course with a honda you pray at that point that itll hold together....

anyhow, this motor put out far less torque than hp, so my question is, if horsepower is a byproduct of torque then why is it that engines, including big block fords, will make alot of hp but have lower torque numbers? after all torque is what does the real work. usually a bbf will put out a similar number either way, but this tiny honda far less. and then a caterpillar C-15 (900+ cubes of big diesel) rated at say 425 hp, puts out 2000 lb ft of torque. is it the rpm range that makes the difference? or the rotating mass? or a combination thereof? obviously a matter of physics but i was no scholar in that subject. can anybody clarify this for me?

thanks, Dave
 

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I was good in physics tho not a scholar.

The basic reason for what you are noticing is that the cat makes 425 hp at probably something like 1200 rpm.

Torque is strictly force and hp has a time factor built in.

On engines we measure torque in foot lbs so it is the amount of force applied at the end of a 1 foot long bar attached to the crankshaft at a given rpm.

So the cat will lift 2000 lbs 1 foot away from the crank while turning 1200 rpm and the honda will lift 333 lbs 1 foot away from the crank at 7200 rpm. Horsepower is equal but torque is not. The cat is lifting a lot more but the honda is moving 6 times faster.

1 horsepower is defined as the ability to move 550 lbs 1 foot in 1 second

Consequently the big diesels will move a huge amount of weight just not very fast. theoretically if you applied the the cat horspower to the honda with the right gearing the end resulting performance would be the same.

Hope that makes some sense.

dkp
 

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It's all about the torque at rpms. Horsepower is just a number that takes the force (torque) and measures it against rotational speed (rpms). Any engine will produce the exact same torque and horsepower number at 5252 rpm. The math is simple to figure out horsepower with only the torque number and the rpm number. An engine that hits peak HP around 5200rpm will have almost exactly equal hp and torque numbers. Those that keep producing the same force on the crankshaft at higher rpms will start to boost up the hp number even if the torque isn't climbing. If the torque stays the same or falls at a slower rate than the rate the rpms increase, you'll get a motor that makes a higher hp number than the torque peak.
 

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Hope I don't get into trouble here. :mrgreen:

Horsepower is based on torque and rpm.

Take the diesel; lets say it produces 600 lbs/tq at 2,500 rpm. At 2,500 rpm that is 286 horsepower.

Take a race 460 motor that produces 600 lbs/tq at 7,000. At 7,000 rpm it will produce 800 horsepower.

Take a 4 banger honda motor with 24 psi of turbo boost that produces 442 lbs/tq at 9,500 rpm. At 9,500 rpm it will produce 800 hp.

These are true comparsions. You have to remember the Honda is under boost, and that makes the engine think it's larger than what it is.

If you where to turbo boost a 460 motor with 24 psi, you would have over 2,000 hp at 7,000 rpm, and if you went to 9,500 rpm, over 2,500 horsepower.

Hope some of this makes sense. :roll: :mrgreen:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
ah, very well explained guys. ill have to reread this and print it on the brain, a smaller high rpm motor will not be effective to move weight unless it is at very high rpm and you have very,very low gearing, opposed to bb or diesel power which is greater at lower rpms... thus making smallish honda motors useless for anything but small passenger cars that dont need to go fast, or move a heavy load.
 

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Last summer I stumbled on a local car forum. I started BSing with the guys and started figuring out where all the "spots" were.
Its a lot of young guys who grew up on fast and furious stuff and Gran Turismo on the PS2 so lots of imports. One night I was talking to a guy my age with a small black Honda hatch. He was checking out my black Torino.

He asks if I want to take a spin so I hop into this car. It looked stock inside except a boost gauge. We pull out on I 75 and wait for traffic to clear, it was pretty empty at 11pm. Guy nails it and I watch the gauges climb.

at 4500rpm we were doing 100mph, we hit 7 grand, Guy says we were doing 165mph. I completely believe it, It was just constant acceleration like a bike.
I know no one here will be impressed, there are insanely fast cars on 460ford that actually have tourque but I'll never discount a boosted Honda on the street.

This car was a sleeved B swapped car with a big turbo. He had all new suspension and Willwoods on it. It felt totally safe at speed. It sure could have used a cage though.

Yeah I took the guy for a ride too. No chance of hitting 160 in my car, it would not have been safe .

 

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Discussion Starter #8
phil i have seen some fast ones out there, my buddy had a gsr motor swap in an integra he had, pretty quick car, no race car by any means but ok for the street, so one night we pulled it and bolted it into a tiny hatch he bought for 200 dollars.... good bang for your buck considering he paid 1000 for the motor and trans running well(usually dont find a gsr motor for less than 3 grand nm the transaxle), and that hatch was incredibly fast due to the shaved weight.. but even he said to make one faster and keep it reliable, it would cost more than any v8 he knew of. hence my statement about hondas not being good candidates for high power applications, although it can be done. the gsr motor ended up back in the integra, and blew up about half a year later. either way, a honda motor spinning incredible rpms will not last as long as a mildly built large displacement v8 putting out similar hp and more torque. plus, as i have just learned, the physics show the v8 is going to have a far superior power band due to the fact that at almost any range of rpm it produces more torque than the 4 cylinder.

btw, your torino is always going to be better looking and pull more respect than that small honda, even if it doesnt go as fast. but im sure you dont need me telling you that lol :lol:
 

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800hp hondas

The import guys are content with the high infant mortality rates required to attain such numbers. I have friends that do this sort of thing, and they're tearing into the internals on a regular basis. It's all considered part of the scene...breaking stuff every weekend is just the way it is. If that's what you're into, then I guess it's ok. Personally, I'd like to build an 800hp engine that lasts a while. I havn't seen anything from any of the imports that have done that yet without spending a lot on the engine and drivetrain. Most of these import race guys that are really serious have enough parts in the shop to build 5 or 6 more engines just to support the one thats running. Compare that to what kind of spares most of the 800hp BBF guys have lying around (I.E. slim to none usually) and that alone should speak for reliability.
 
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i know how it is with these import guys the scene is huge here in orange county buy i think its funny that they bolt on a intake with a K&N filter on there and some fart can muffler and think they can take on any car on the street like for instance i was helping a buddy weld a roll cage in another friends car yesterday and some fool in a civic hatch stoped dead in the middle of the street and yelled f*&&K v8 and proceded to rev the piss outta his car did a "N-drop" and broke a trans axel so all i can see is those guys are stupid to think of the honda as "modern muscle" cuz one thing they dont have is that
 

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:lol: Hehe...thats funny!!
I knew a guy about 8 years ago who had one of them "DSM's"....all wheel drive Mitsubishi Eclipse.
That thing was an absolute monster!! it ran 9.60's in the quarter, and it just pulled like a freight train!!
Of course it was the DOHC 4 valve per cylinder engine with a huge turbo, intercooler, and nitrous, and beefed up transaxle and shafts.
But still, that damn thing was impressive!!........fast is fast no matter what.
But that was an exception, not the norm. These kids today dont know anything else outside of the import realm.
 

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ugh... rice tuners. less than one percent of these tuner guys have any idea what theyre doing. and those guys have deep pockets and lotsa experience with race cars. after Fast and Furious came out, our trans shop got inundated with kids and their torn up trannies. every one of em came in and said " i want a stronger trans!" After finally locating a german manufacturer of hiperf. parts for hondas, wed tell them "no problem, a gear set: 3000.00 bucks, axles 1500.00 a piece. they're made for formula one" the kids would look at us with a blank stare and try to scrape up enough money for a stock rebuild. some would cough for a better clutch only to return with the thing roasted 2 weeks later. i drove one kids/customers civic with an automatic, cold air intake and a coffee can muffler. the thing revved like a wet fart and couldnt get outta its own way. his girlfriend thought he was just neato.
 

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Rarely will you see one of the "fast and furious" gang race from a standing start. If you notice most of the ricer videos (in various places on the net) showing a Mustang (or other domestic) getting out-run, it's done from a 50+ mph roll. I've seen some clamed 800+ h.p. ricers get spanked at the drag strip. Those guys rarely come back to the track a second time, as they were embarrised badly. Unfortunatly they are risking lives out there street-racing instead. It's not a healthy culture for the hot rodding community. Thus the crack-downs on hot rods in general by law enforcement.


.
 

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oh my

if someone could give me instruction on how to post pics and video i could show y'all a honda that my bother-in-law built that has over a 1000hp...........or just leave a email addy and i can send it.....but it aint no 4 banger!!!
 

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I'll chime in..

A good friend is into Nissans.

There is an engine that came in Japanese Nissan Pulsars.. an SR20DEt (t meaning turbo).. Guys bring these over to the US for about $1900 with a complete ECU and harness. With a larger exhaust and a mild increase in boost, they'll put down 280 WHEEL HP (in a 2300 LB car). Jim Wolfe is an aftermarket company that specializes in these engines. Cams, ECU upgrades, etc.

That all being said, I've posted a video some time ago of my buddies Nissan. 316whp 304wtq at 18psi.



With that setup, he ran 12.4 @ 111mph. I've been in this car, and have taken enough videos of it to know it's for real. Street tires, first 3 gears are wheelspin, but that's the nature of FWD.

He's now doing a turbo upgrade.. T4 I think.



That should be 550 whp. Turn down the boost with a knob on the dash for daily driving, crank it up to go play.. He can still pull high 20s low 30s for MPG on a highway trip, and low 20s if he's careful around town.

His total investment (including things he's bought/sold) is around $6500.

Let's review. $6500 for low 11s.. including cost of car. plus daily driver capability.

Gee.. My Cougar doesn't seem like such the hot ticket anymore.

On a side note... I notice a lot of guys on this forum are all midwestern KY, IN, etc. .. There's probably 4 or 5 local forums (Massachusetts), all with import guys, with cars this caliber driving around. Finding old iron just isn't cheap or practical... There isn't any to be had. In my age group (under 30) I'm definitely in the minority.

Ive actually asked him and his younger friends why not work on something older and RWD.. Too expensive, too hard to find parts.. unreliable.. rot boxes.. just aren't around here..

It's either imports, new Mustangs (Foxes are already 14+ years old, and unless it's a project, they show their age around here), or pickup trucks. Maybe once the Challenger arrives, and the Camaro, that'll change.
:?
 

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DJOHAGIN said:
Hope I don't get into trouble here. :mrgreen:

Horsepower is based on torque and rpm.

Take the diesel; lets say it produces 600 lbs/tq at 2,500 rpm. At 2,500 rpm that is 286 horsepower.

Take a race 460 motor that produces 600 lbs/tq at 7,000. At 7,000 rpm it will produce 800 horsepower.

Take a 4 banger honda motor with 24 psi of turbo boost that produces 442 lbs/tq at 9,500 rpm. At 9,500 rpm it will produce 800 hp.

These are true comparsions. You have to remember the Honda is under boost, and that makes the engine think it's larger than what it is.

If you where to turbo boost a 460 motor with 24 psi, you would have over 2,000 hp at 7,000 rpm, and if you went to 9,500 rpm, over 2,500 horsepower.

Hope some of this makes sense.


The Cat is also under boost, big boost! The Cat turbo is almost as big as the slanteyed sh!tbox engine.
 

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I was into SR20 swaps 10 years ago with some of the first people who figured it out. We were doing Silvia swaps( jap version of 240 sx). With intake, injectors, turbo upgrade, apex head gasket, and exhaust, 400 RWHP is VERY easy to get with these cars. And the 300ZX diff bolts up to the IRS. So lets review...light car, light engine, IRS w/ LSD, and 400 rwhp with little boost threshold= nasty as you wanna be. And 30 mpg is easy with them. The SR20DET is a twin cam 16valve turbo charged 2.0L engine very similar to US SR20DE that comes in the sentra SE-r but in the silvia, it is longitudinally mounted with a 5 speed gearbox and has direct fire ignition, where the earlier pulsars had a distributor. The pulsar engines are cheap because the are old, but the silvia engines with their newfound popularity are still getting like $4G for a complete swap. They use a special trans that is not availible at all in the us, so the swap has to be complete or bust. There was a guy around here a long time ago that did a silvia swap in a nissan hardbody pickup. oops sorry, Im on a tangent.
 
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