[austynn2001]

Hello everyone.

This will be a fairly long post about what happened to my motor due to what I believe to be an oiling problem. If you can offer any advice, please do so. If you can learn anything from my mistake, then it will be worth the trouble to me.

OK, over the summer my father and myself tore the 460 out of my F250 and decided to completely rebuild it. We started by having the local machine shop bore it .030" over and turning the stock crank .010" over on the mains and rods. We used Clevite bearings for both with part numbers MS1039P-10 and CB818P-10(8 ). We also used a Melling high-volume oil pump part number MEL-M84BHVS. We got the oil galley plugs and the freeze plugs in a set together and had the same machine shop install them. We got the Federal Mogul rings part number SLP-E-296K030 and installed them according to the Ford factory manual. That should be all the information pertaining to the issues with my motor. Now, we finished the rest of the motor and got it in the truck. Next came break in time. Well, the first time we tried to break it in at 2,000 RPM, it was very loud and sounded nice, but the headers started to glow red. That wasn't that big a deal at first because we figured that it was probably just the timing needing adjustment and we would do it after the motor was broken in and we could idle it. Wrong! We noticed some smoke arising from the passenger side toward the rear of the header and saw that oil was dripping out the filter on the valve cover breather. The oil started to ignite when it dropped so we shut it off and decided to make a baffle inside the valve cover since the tall Moroso's that we bought didn't come with any. The baffle came out very nicely, but it didn't solve our problem. We then figured that it must be the high volume oil pump and that we should just extend the hole a little with some tube that we threaded into it. It ran like that at 2,000 RPM without any oil coming out the tube for about ten minutes and then shut off. Oh well, just turn it back on and finish the break in. Nope. It won't even turn over now. Not even with a breaker bar on the big bolt in the front of the motor. So now it's time to take it apart again. We pulled the motor and found a great deal of metal chips and chunks throughout the motor. It turns out that the only real damage is two of the rod bearings. Of course it chewed up the crank and warped two rod caps in the process, but it's better than it could have been. Well, we still suspected the high volume oil pump of sucking the bottom end dry and putting it all up high and we were going to just replace it with a stock one and call it a day, but a very knowledgeable and respected "Ford guy" who has built his fair share of 460's including a 700+ HP pulling truck said that it is definitely not the oil pump. He said that we either missed an oil galley plug and it's pumping the oil up top or we put the rings on wrong. He said that the rings should go on across from eachother with ones 90 degrees to those. I'm not sure whether to do it that way or the way the Ford factory manual says. That is all the information that I can think of to tell you so that you can help me figure out what happened to my poor motor. If you need any more information, just let me know and I will tell you. Sorry for such a long post, but I wanted it to be as precise as possible so that the correct solution can be found.

Thank you very much, Austynn.

 

[Jon]

Glowing red headers at 2000 rpm is not good. Did you put any kind of cam shaft in it or just stock? sounds like the carb is lean and timing is off. Are pistons scoured? How much oil did you have in it ??

 

[austynn2001]

I put in the Comp Cams Xtreme 4X4 Cam.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/CurrentCatalog/HTML/102-109.asp (second one down in the Xtreme 4X4 section). The pistons aren't bad and neither are the cylinders, but you can see-not feel- a little bit where the pistons were rubbing the cylinder wall. Thanks, Austynn.

 

[ccso640]

opinion

Sounds like the motor was a little lean or had a timing problem with the headers glowing red. Were the rings file fit or just factory style rings, probably factory style and that should not cause it to seize even if the gaps were all together. High volume oil pump can't pump the pan dry, especially at 2000 rpm so rule that out. Did you completely wash the block and make sure all debris was out of the oil system before assembly, I mean with soap, scrubbing, and a serious wash down? I would bet that you left an oil galley plug out and lost oil internally but what was the oil pressure? Another thing to consider is the cam freeze plug coming out when the cam was installed causing oil to leak out of the back of the motor making you think it was coming from the valve cover, or an intake leak at the back causing the oil to run down the head. Last thing to consider, did you install the main bearings correctly, not upside down blocking oil to the bearings? This stuff happens and you won't know exactly until you pull it apart. Chris

 

[austynn2001]

The rings were from the factory unfiled. No, I will admit, we didn't scrub the block out. We used some sprays and air, but no scrubbing and we weren't meticulous at all. All the gauges read fine while it was running, but they are the stock 1986 F250 gauges, so I wouldn't really depend on them for anything. I looked briefly for any missing plugs after we tore it back apart on Saturday, but couldn't find any. Are there any in particular that are hard to see and maybe were missed by the machine shop guys? No, the oil was definitely coming from the valve cover. Right out the hole where the breather filter goes in on the top. Also, the main bearings were installed correctly. Thanks, Austynn.

 

[Guest]

rod bearings

were the rods burnt on the same crank pin ? if so clearance wasto tight. Dont know what ring position got to do with bearings. also a rich will turn the headers red more than anything- fuel is burning in the tube.

 

[F100cleveland]

Just a shot in the dark, but could the head gasket have got put on the backwards or upside down? I know on Clevelands it causes cooling problems, but on a 460 could it block the drain-back holes or really restrict them?

 

[bbf468]

Make sure the rods and pistons are

assembled the right way. I had a shop put all 8 piston/rod assemblies together wrong once!! They worked on chebbies all the time and I didn't know to look for that.

Kyle

 

[austynn2001]

Yes, those two rods were visibly heated. That guy was talking about how if the rings were on wrong, it could compress the bottom of the motor and push the oil up or something. I didn't really follow, but I thought maybe he was right. And to the head gasket question, I will have my father check it out tomottor because they are still stuck on the bottom of the heads, but I'm 99% sure they were on correctly. Also, the same machine shop did press the pistons on the rods and I will have my father look at those tomorrow too. Thanks, Austynn.

 

[68xr7cat]

To put it simply, you spun a rod bearing. Since this happened at initial startup and 2,000 rpm you better look at the machine work and your clearances.

Since you didn't say there was a problem with the mains we can safely say oil is getting to the mains. The rods are feed from the mains and no load 2k rpm you don't need much oil.

Now I'm not saying you don't have other issues, but thoses rod bearings failed because of either tight clearance, improperly ground rod journal, out of round, out of spec. rod big end, or a ton of side clearance.

As for the piston ring theory, many times the gaps will line up on their own and if the rings were upsided down you would have a bad seal, which means blow by.

As for the oil pump, stock clearances stock volume, loose clearances high volume pump. It is simply a matter of moving the right amout of oil to keep up with the size of the leak. Also, if you use a hi volume pump you can run a stock pan dry at high RPM (not 2k) all depending on serveral factors. A larger sump is recommended - it's a good idea regardless.

I would recommend having someone who knows what they are doing measure all the clearances and check the machine work. Also, make sure the two plugs in the front oil passages are beveled or you will have oiling probelms...

-Steve

 

[BigBlockRanger]

Sounds like one journal didn't get ground 0.010" under....

 

[jmcx]

I've seen cast exhaust manifolds glow because of severely retarded timing. Did you carefully clean the oil passages in the crank after machining? They are often full of filings.

 

[jadua]

Oil Pressure

Im sorry maybe i missed something. Did we prime the motor before starting and did we have oil pressure? did we watch oil pressure when running?.................Stan

 

[austynn2001]

Hmm maybe it was the machine work on the crank... We did prime the motor before starting with a drill onto the distributor driveshaft. Also, the oil pressure seemed fine, but again, it was based on the stock 1986 F250 gauges, so no telling how accurate they are. Thanks, Austynn.

 

[jbo92stang]

headers

I fired up my engine for the first time last night and the headers glowed the whole 10 min of run time i had to shut it down for freeze plug lking is this glowing header issue something i should be concerned about i still need to run it some more for break-in oil pressure was good 60 psi know other problems than the freeze plug i was not able to do any tuning timing carb etc

 

[Phantasea466]

When I start my engines for the first time I have the timing light hooked up and ready to operate with a few friends hanging around to help out

 

[austynn2001]

That sounds like a good idea for next time, but right now I need to figure out what to do to get to that point. Next time though, we're going to build a stand to break the motor in on instead of getting it all tucked back in the truck and possibly having to pull it again.

 

[austynn2001]

I just came across something interesting. It is about the head gaskets. I used the Fel Pro 1028 head gaskets based on this article: http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/7166pp.html which shows a 460 block bored .030" over. The head gasket bore size on those gaskets is 4.670". Those gaskets come with steam holes in them. Tonight, however, I came across this article: http://www.trickflow.com/articles/stroker_3/at_st_3_body.asp with a 460 block bored .030" over as well, but they used Fel Pro 1018 head gaskets. Those gaskets have a 4.500" bore and no steam holes. I am not sure which ones I should have used to begin with or which ones to use this time around. I'm hoping it's the second set because they're $33.88 a piece as opposed to $45.95 a piece for the others. Thanks, Austynn.

 

[fordman300]

get a mr gasket gasket set
mrg-7130
$42 from summit

4.49 bore and .039 compressed

never had a problem with them yet even on a 13:1 pulling motor

 

[John I.]

The only time I saw headers glowing red on a fast idling engine, the guy had his ignition module wires on backwards. The horseshoe connector was busted that plugs into the distributor, and he'd hooked 2 wires up wrong. I got it sorted out for him, but he'd ran it that way for a week, and the motor only lived a couple of more days and blew a piston apart.