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Discussion Starter #1
I’m in the planning stage of my 460 build and looking for advice before I commit or buy any parts.

Application: 1972 F250 4x4, C6, NP205, D60/10.25. 38-40” rubber
Usage: Weekly street driven, desert off-roading, sand. General goofing around
Core: 76 460, d3 heads
Power goal: 400hp + capability for a little nitrous, on pump gas (91)
Budget: mild, $TBD

Initial research leads me to believe that I can achieve ~400hp something like this
-Stock crank/rods, good bolts, forged pistons
-9.0-9.5 C/R, w/ decent quench distance
-Cam in the 262 range
-D3 heads with exh porting, gasket match, stock valve size
-Edel Perf RPM (or equivalent)
-FITECH 600hp power adder fuel injection (or equivalent)
-Headers, 2.5" pipes
-Duraspark distributor, MSD box (perhaps FITECH ignition advance control)

Specifically, I’m looking for advice on the following items;
1) A decent machine shop in the Phoenix AZ area
2) Exactly what machine work needs to be done to
a. Block
b. Heads (I'll do porting myself)
3) Piston selection
4) Is there value in larger cam (~268) and would screw in studs be a wise choice to support?

This truck will have to pass emissions. Given 1972 limits and F250 equipment (PCV only) this should be doable with fuel injection and a mild cam.
The C6 will likely have a stock torque converter. Gears are 4.10 for now but will be 4.88s or so in the future for the big rubber. I'm looking for a wide torque band for this heavy truck.

Step 1 is finding a competent machine shop and putting together a plan and a budget. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Will the 76 D3 head need hardened exhaust seats, or are they already present?

Pistons;
Given deck, rod, crank the nominal comp height is 1.792
Common pistons comp H's are 1.760-1.1772.
Given 95cc chamber, 0.045 head gasket, a 1.772 flat top is .020 down and yields about a 9.5:1 CR. '0 decked' raises this to about 10:1

Given a real example of a off-the-shelf forged piston, like this
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-ic636-030/overview/make/ford
At 0 deck the CR is 10.25
with min deck cleanup yielding piston down 0.015, the CR is 9.9:1 and quench at 0.060. Is this a decent compromise? is 9.9 CR too high for 91 octane in a heavy truck?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I get that my build isn't big inch, high dollar or going into a sexy race car.

Is it too boring to discuss here? Have I offended or broken the rules?

I have attempted to provide basic info like application, use, goals, and proposed parts/specs. I asked some specific questions after doing some homework.

What can I do to get some feedback on this site?
:confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks, I'll give that a shot...

Where to start. uh, Hi my name is Justin. I like Fords, heavy metal music, whiskey & blondes. Been wrenching and drag racing since high school. Also into 4 wheeling, motorcycles, boating, and most anything fast and loud. I've built a few Windors including doing my own fuel injection tuning. I have't done a 385 series and most of my searches lead to this site so I signed up.

Bought this truck 2 years ago to convert to 4WD. Fixed a bunch of stuff and drive it regularly.


Built a 34'x40' detached workshop over the last few years so now I am ready to do a build. Bought a core motor, trans, TC, & 1 ton axles. In process of re-building axles now. Here is the motor as it sits.
 

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Google or ask around about machine shop
Your likely gonna need a bore job and might want to have block zero decked
Find a Napa...lot of them have a place or can over haul heads in house after you’ve ported them
I believe your gonna need a small dish to achieve your target cr. I’d shoot for closer to 10:1 though. That’s where you start to see some nice
gains and still be on pump premium. Google your chamber size and use the cr calculator on summits site.
Cam selection is out of my league. I studied cams hard but never really used what I learned so I’ve forgotten. I’d say though, some thing in
the .240-.250 duration range, .550-.580 open and 110 lsa would be ball park. Going over that duration I think will be to snotty.
Stock head bolts are fine for 10:1cr all day but with the nitrous I’d go ahead with the arp studs
I would get a set of forged rods also because of the nitrous injection

You will be over 400hp at 10:1cr, ported heads, nice cam....easy. Enjoy
 

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X2 on the upgraded rods if your set on nitrous. Once you price pistons, rods and polishing your crank your not far off the money of a stroker deal. Then you have something to grow into. Just my two cents
 

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Justin,

Welcome. With the increasing use of social media pages these forums do not see the traffic they used to. Patients is typically required.

That being said you can easily put together a 425 hp to 450 hp combo that will run on 91 octane fuel. The key is choosing the right pieces to work together.

We do a crate combo that fits right in with your post. I will provide a link(s) for you to use as a guide. This link outlines the build on our biz FB page.

460 hp build:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/photos/?tab=album&album_id=712851065759240

Use flat top pistons a few though below deck and set your D3 chambers to 95 cc's.



425 hp 87 octane build:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/photos/?tab=album&album_id=488586661519016

This build uses H612 cp EFI pistons at 0 deck and 90 cc chambers for 9 to 1 static c/r.

Raise static c/r with flat tops near 0 deck and 95 cc chambers for 9.7 to 1 static and this combo will make 440 hp.


You will need to have the block cleaned, bored, honed, square decked .020" to .023" on a never decked block. You will have to measure your blocks currents deck height if it has been decked prior. Have the machine shop install the cam bearings as well as the oil galley plugs and freeze plugs.

RPM and heavy pistons kill OEM rods. A 100 shot of NOX with properly set piston ring gaps is allowable on oem rods that are properly resized. Upgraded rod bolts should be considered.


I do not recommend the OEM converter with either of these engine combos. A C6 factory high stall is a good fit at 2,100 to 2,300 and is cost effective. With your intended tire height, increased rolling mass and gearing a 2500 stall performance converter is a better fit for getting things moving from a stop.

Proper port work and a performance 3 angle valve job with the choke above the valves set at 90% of valve size, intake and exhaust valves back cut 27 to 30*, chamber unshrouded on the intake side, etc are essential to allowing the engine to breathe.

A properly curved distributor or ignition curve programmed into the EFI ecm.
Aluminum intake with no heat through the cross over.
180 stat for EFI or 160 for a carbed set up.

1.75" truck headers are fine as is 2.5" dual exhaust with an H or X.

The OEM rockers are fine for either of the above referenced builds. You must use good push rods of the proper length to set lifter plunger pre-load. A crane shim kit helps you to fine tune pre load. Scorpion makes a good bolt down aluminum roller rocker for the slotted pedestal heads. Scorpion makes the engine pro rockers we occasionally use on slotted pedestal heads when we turn up the wick a bit. The same fine tuning of the lifter pre-load still applies.

In the end it is all in the details.


Hope this helps...



SJ
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Google or ask around about machine shop
Your likely gonna need a bore job and might want to have block zero decked
Find a Napa...lot of them have a place or can over haul heads in house after you’ve ported them
I believe your gonna need a small dish to achieve your target cr. I’d shoot for closer to 10:1 though. That’s where you start to see some nice
gains and still be on pump premium. Google your chamber size and use the cr calculator on summits site.
Cam selection is out of my league. I studied cams hard but never really used what I learned so I’ve forgotten. I’d say though, some thing in
the .240-.250 duration range, .550-.580 open and 110 lsa would be ball park. Going over that duration I think will be to snotty.
Stock head bolts are fine for 10:1cr all day but with the nitrous I’d go ahead with the arp studs
I would get a set of forged rods also because of the nitrous injection

You will be over 400hp at 10:1cr, ported heads, nice cam....easy. Enjoy
Thanks for the feedback. I've ran lots of CR calcs and to get a decent quench after decking I need a -10cc dish which is not available as an off-the-shelf part in forged.

X2 on the upgraded rods if your set on nitrous. Once you price pistons, rods and polishing your crank your not far off the money of a stroker deal. Then you have something to grow into. Just my two cents
I'm trying very hard to not look at stroker kits. If I go that route I will blame you.... but yes your right in just a few hundred more for the whole deal. Then I would need aftermarket heads to make the 'best use' of the extra cubes, and then it snowballs from there.
:)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Justin,

Welcome. With the increasing use of social media pages these forums do not see the traffic they used to. Patients is typically required.

That being said you can easily put together a 425 hp to 450 hp combo that will run on 91 octane fuel. The key is choosing the right pieces to work together.

We do a crate combo that fits right in with your post. I will provide a link(s) for you to use as a guide. This link outlines the build on our biz FB page.

460 hp build:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/photos/?tab=album&album_id=712851065759240

Use flat top pistons a few though below deck and set your D3 chambers to 95 cc's.



425 hp 87 octane build:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/photos/?tab=album&album_id=488586661519016

This build uses H612 cp EFI pistons at 0 deck and 90 cc chambers for 9 to 1 static c/r.

Raise static c/r with flat tops near 0 deck and 95 cc chambers for 9.7 to 1 static and this combo will make 440 hp.


You will need to have the block cleaned, bored, honed, square decked .020" to .023" on a never decked block. You will have to measure your blocks currents deck height if it has been decked prior. Have the machine shop install the cam bearings as well as the oil galley plugs and freeze plugs.

RPM and heavy pistons kill OEM rods. A 100 shot of NOX with properly set piston ring gaps is allowable on oem rods that are properly resized. Upgraded rod bolts should be considered.


I do not recommend the OEM converter with either of these engine combos. A C6 factory high stall is a good fit at 2,100 to 2,300 and is cost effective. With your intended tire height, increased rolling mass and gearing a 2500 stall performance converter is a better fit for getting things moving from a stop.

Proper port work and a performance 3 angle valve job with the choke above the valves set at 90% of valve size, intake and exhaust valves back cut 27 to 30*, chamber unshrouded on the intake side, etc are essential to allowing the engine to breathe.

A properly curved distributor or ignition curve programmed into the EFI ecm.
Aluminum intake with no heat through the cross over.
180 stat for EFI or 160 for a carbed set up.

1.75" truck headers are fine as is 2.5" dual exhaust with an H or X.

The OEM rockers are fine for either of the above referenced builds. You must use good push rods of the proper length to set lifter plunger pre-load. A crane shim kit helps you to fine tune pre load. Scorpion makes a good bolt down aluminum roller rocker for the slotted pedestal heads. Scorpion makes the engine pro rockers we occasionally use on slotted pedestal heads when we turn up the wick a bit. The same fine tuning of the lifter pre-load still applies.

In the end it is all in the details.


Hope this helps...



SJ
Thanks for all the info. I checked out your FB links. I grew up not far from your shop in Roy...
Anyhow I appreciate all the info. might have to pass on making the motor Nitrous capable to stay budget friendly. I have plenty of time to decide.
Looked at some worked over factory style converters. Seems like they would be OK in the rocks.

I'm assuming I should port the head before getting machine work done so that is likely the next step. I removed a few broken bolts out of them last night. Going to call a few local EFI tuners and see if they can recommend a machine shop.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Opened up the motor. Crispy but overall looks OK. Assuming from the crushed oil pan that this was out of a van. got an efi 4x4 pan to replace.
Measured bore and it is 4.36-ish so a virgin. Cylinder wall all ok.

heads look ok, no damage.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I've made some progress on machine shops and pricing things out to be able to weigh some options. Being that I'm still in the planning stage, I'm contemplating a few options... I guestimate the minimum cost to build my 460 is $5000.

To run nitrous, I need forged pistons/rod and the system itself. This is about a +$1200 adder even using some leftovers I have and buy used parts.

Heads.
Based on what I know at this point, I will have about $1100 into refurb'ing the stock D3s and porting them myself. Plus my time. The results won't be as good as someone experienced.

I can get a pair of TFS heads and rockers for an additional $1300 over the refurb cost. They will outperform my attempt at porting the D3s. They will cost roughly the same as the nitrous option. Another option are Scotty's budget D3s at +$900 after shipping.

So, my question is;
Will aftermarket heads be a good fit for my truck application?
To make use of the higher flow, a bigger cam and more RPM will make more power. But I don't want to move power curve up in RPM significantly or have low vacuum at idle.
Will the port size/velocity of the TFS or similar aluminum head still be a decent match to a 460ci motor with a cam around 262/270?
Will the extra power (if much) from the AL heads in the 1500-5500 RPM range be worth the money?
 

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Yes, but.........

The TFS heads are/would be well worth it, especially if you plan on 'stepping' on the engine in the future. If you are going to leave the engine alone and have no plans on upgrading in the future, I'd personally stick with the Iron heads and put more time into port work on them. I'd also convert them to 'screw in studs' while i'm there. That opens up a LOT more choices in rocker arms. Hughes is in your area as far as torque converters goes. They make a very nice converter for a decent price. I have used their converters and they work very well. Steve.............
 

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For what you are outlining the factory iron is great up to about 500 hp in budget ported form. It will go higher but cam timing needs to get snotty.

If aluminum heads are on the table go directly to the AFR 280's. They are cost effective as hell and will outpower out of the box TFS 290's, SCJ's and especially the EDDY castings.

We did a 468" build for a local retired boeing machinist. Timing on the HR cam was modest at 223 / 235 @ .050 but the output was brutal given the very mild build specs and 90+f cell temps. 568 tq / 561 hp @ 5,800.


Check it out here:


https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/photos/?tab=album&album_id=659204134457267

The above engine was heavily overbuilt at the clients request for long term peace of mind.



SJ
 

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From what I’ve read and what Tim at bullet cams told me......AFR heads are most efficient headshe has ever come across and because of that is why you can make great power without going big cam at higher revs. Do yourself a favor and take Mad Porters advice.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
The TFS heads are/would be well worth it, especially if you plan on 'stepping' on the engine in the future. If you are going to leave the engine alone and have no plans on upgrading in the future, I'd personally stick with the Iron heads and put more time into port work on them. I'd also convert them to 'screw in studs' while i'm there. That opens up a LOT more choices in rocker arms. Hughes is in your area as far as torque converters goes. They make a very nice converter for a decent price. I have used their converters and they work very well. Steve.............
Considering a Hughes converter even though I personally had lots of bad luck with them on a C-4 build.

For what you are outlining the factory iron is great up to about 500 hp in budget ported form. It will go higher but cam timing needs to get snotty.
If aluminum heads are on the table go directly to the AFR 280's. They are cost effective as hell and will outpower out of the box TFS 290's, SCJ's and especially the EDDY castings.
We did a 468" build for a local retired boeing machinist. Timing on the HR cam was modest at 223 / 235 @ .050 but the output was brutal given the very mild build specs and 90+f cell temps. 568 tq / 561 hp @ 5,800
Check it out here:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/photos/?tab=album&album_id=659204134457267
The above engine was heavily overbuilt at the clients request for long term peace of mind.
SJ
Thanks again for the info. Looked at the AFRs, which appear to need specific pistons like SCJ/P51. Will they require a custom piston or is there something available out there? What is approximate cost of a set of custom pistons?
I would go with the 85cc version and need a piston with about 15cc dish.
Thanks

Edit:
I see on your old website "RaceTec and AutoTec pistons for AFR heads now available."
more info please.

I called RaceTec and an AFR specific piston would be a full custom at about $800 w/o rings. Given a hyper piston set at around $400 the AFRs add another $400. Total extra cost for AFRs over rebuilding/port the D3 is around +$1700. I would hope for this extra cost that the AFRs would get to 500hp with a similar cam.

Not sure if a off-the-shelf piston (like H612CP 30) could be fly cut for the AFRs. As you can tell I have budget restrictions. Life would be more fun with unlimited money.
 

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You can use 75cc afr heads with 39cc dish pistons at zero deck will get you very close to 10:1cr. With that size dish and a mildcam you will not need to fly cut them.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
You can use 75cc afr heads with 39cc dish pistons at zero deck will get you very close to 10:1cr. With that size dish and a mildcam you will not need to fly cut them.
Thanks for the info. I searched for a similar argument but didn't quite find one. Running the numbers I get about 8.6:1. Given 75cc head I need a 20cc dish piston @0 deck to get 10:1 CR (26cc for target or 9.5:1). Perhaps I am not using the calculator correctly....

Looks like some have been able used SCJ pistons. Appears that most order-able SCJ pistons are for stroker applications.

So down the stroker rabbit hole again. If I go with an aftermarket AL head the power band will be slightly higher with cam as limiting factor. Fancy custom pistons on stock rods at 5800-6000 RPM doesn't sound so smart so should spend a little more on rods instead of reconditioning. Now I'm $100 away from a stroker kit.

Since I want power at low RPM the stroker/aftermarket head combo is 'perfect' but expensive at $7000+. You can never have too much power, but now the transmission, drive shafts & yokes, axle shafts, axle u-joints are on the edge and reliability is gone. That stuff gets really expensive too, chromoly this that and the other is thousands more. I need things to stay together out in the middle of nowhere.
 

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Yes, they where scj’s and I think it was 29cc, sorry.

Now that you are speaking of down the line failures while having a budget then yes, you should steer clear of making to much power. Even 450hp is gonna get real rough on off-road drivetrains. Better to play it safe. I got you.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Well my engine build is underway now. Big thanks to Mad porter for his time, advice and experience. Basically going to copy his tow pack combo linked above.

I decided to stick with the ported iron heads mainly for $$ reasons and also to keep the power down low. The AFRs, custom pistons, rockers and so added around $1800 and moved power up about 700 rpm.

Block has been bored 0.030 and crank cut 10/10, next step is to get pistons and have block decked. Going with H612CP pistons which have 12cc dish and should put static CR around 9.3 or so. Planning to use a 213/227 cam which should provide plenty of vacuum for brakes and pass emissions.

After some more research I'm skeptical of the FITECH's quality and looking at the Holley Sniper system, which is about the same price.

Looking forward to hearing this engine run but realistically I'm a long ways away, maybe a year. Next step is to sell the 390/c6 and blow apart the truck.
 
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